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http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/2011/lchtml/LC1760.htm
Guess I could have put this on the Conservation Forum but I thought it would get more traction here (pun intended). Although I don't see banning felt as the magical cure-all and am not looking forward to discovering how well (or badly) studded rubber soles grip, the law, if enacted, will be what it is and I'm all for doing my part to help.
Regards,
Scott
Scott,
As it is written now, even if it gets voted in, it wouldn't start until October 2012, so two more years of safe felting before we have to chuck them away.
Thanks for posting this.
Larry ---sagefisher---
didn't there used to be a saying about closing the barn door after the horse has already run off? as with all things in nature this too shall run it's course no matter what man does.
Maryland has done it this year, funny thing is they did it after the regulation books were printed so know one knows about it yet. I'm sure when it shows up in the local newspapers outdoor section its going to cause a stir. I contacted the Maryland fisheries dept. to find out how they are going to enforce it this year and they told me they have instructed the game wardens to not give tickets this year but to let the people know that felt has been banned. Should be an interesting topic when the fishing community finds out about it.
Rodney
I have the cure! Everybody wade naked!:twisted::shock:
I wonder when they're going to announce it? Nothing on the Maryland DNR site about implementation of the ban.Quote:
Originally Posted by MidgeMadness
Regards,
Scott
I guess I can live with spiked rubber soles if I have to when I'm fishing from the bank, even though they're nowhere near as comfortable to walk in than plain felt soles are, but it seems to me that this will create a lot of problems for boat fisherman. I don't want to have cleats in my drift boat, and getting into and out of the boat with rubber soles without cleats can be a serious hazard in many places.
Personally, intead of banning felt I would prefer legislation that all boots be disinfected after every use. It would be much cheaper than dealing with a broken neck and back.
Nice idea, but how do you enforce it?Quote:
Personally, intead of banning felt I would prefer legislation that all boots be disinfected after every use. It would be much cheaper than dealing with a broken neck and back.
If they ever ban it in PA, I'll limit my fishing to backwoods streams where I won't see another soul, and continue to wear my felt.
When I have to fish in more populous areas, I'll wear the rubber soled shoes, and tape big pieces of felt to my legs. :P
I guess we didn't see this coming?? LOL It seems like someone is trying to corner the market on a specific rubber product, that's supposed to be "as good as" felt. Seems like Korkers may be the way to go if traveling from place to place, since you can change the type of sole of your boot. The funny thing about these "aquatic hitch hikers" is that they don't just stick to felt as many of you know. You got to scrub your boats, waders, take the laces out of your boots and bleach them pink. Another option is to freeze all your equipment after use since most of these little suckers die off below the freezing point.
I thought I also heard that government officials (fish and game, ect.) and rescue personal are allowed to use felt soles so they won't slip while they rescue people forced to wear the alternative. It's kinda like the cell phone law here in Oregon, it's OK for some but not for the rest. Not that I condone cell use while driving, just a comparison. I guess you can only claim ignorance to a certain point. Might as well velcro felt to the sides of your boots, and like Cold you can find other Loopholes.
And expand that law to include kayaks, drift boats, canoes, pontoon boats, float tubes, rafts, regular old boats, boat trailers, boat anchors, boat engines, trolling motors, depth finder transponders, flippers, wet suits or other neoprene gear, wading staff shock cord, and any other thing that holds or absorbs water and is transferred from watershed to watershed without drying out completely for several days.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Rhoades
It really is comical and naive to believe that any of these bans will make a drop of difference when other recreational users of the watersheds will NEVER do effective disinfection on their gear.
As for me, I'll use what ever gives me the best grip and NOT fish where I know for a fact hitchhikers are present. THAT's the best solution but of course nobody is willing to ban fishing, it's too inconvenient!!
Lasr summer I registered my drift boat for use in Yellowstone National Park. Before the license was issued, I was told that a ranger would normally need to inspect my boat to make sure it was clean. However, after I was asked where I had used my boat before the Park, I was told the ranger who did the inspections was busy doing something else so the gave me the license without doing an inspection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamboozle
Well so much for regulations! I also wondered what all this was really worth since I could later transport my boat from watershed to watershed and the YNP boat registration was good for the entire season.
Here's what Simms says about their rubber soles:Quote:
Originally Posted by luckie88
"In the biggest breakthrough in years, we?ve teamed with Vibram? to give you easy to clean, great-gripping rubber compound treads on our wading boots and river footwear. The G4 Guide?, Guide, Rivershed?, Headwaters? and Freestone? boots feature the Simms StreamTread? sole to keep you upright in wet, mossy wading environments."
Simms makes no unreal claims that their rubber is as good as felt. It will only "keep you upright in wet, mossy wading environments". I can assure you it won't keep you upright when wading on a rocky river botttom, which is where I'm normally wading.
But seriously, how many fisherman really just want a " great-gripping rubber compound" " to keep you upright in wet, mossy wading environments"?
Exactly! Many boaters often do that, sometimes hitting a few places in a day or weekend. I am guilty of putting my fabric covered float tube in as many as 4 different lakes in a weekend without disinfecting.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Rhoades
Call me lazy, ignorant or unconcerned but I doubt I am the only one that finds it impractical to effectively comply when it comes to watercraft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Rhoades
Simms has made the claim that their rubber soles are as "good as felt". I've heard Simms reps say this on two podcasts. Here is one example from the Fly Fishing Retailer Show on Sept 8, 2008. Diane Bristol of Simms makes the claim at about 3:10 into the program. "as good as if not better than felt". Of course time has shown that that is not true.
http://www.itinerantangler.com/podcasts/podcast48.mp3
Legislating rubber soles will not reduce the transportation of invasive species from one location to another. Anyone who believes that they only travel on the soles of our wading boots is living in a dream world. The only solution is to completely disinfect your boots and waders (yes, the little buggers get into your wader seams and gravel guards) after every trip to the water, and the likely hood of the average fly fisherman doing that is about the same as the likely hood of finding intelligent life on earth (almost zero).
This is what I call "feel good" legislation; the people who pass it can point to it and declare that they "really, really care" about the environment. Manufacturers can spout about how environmentally friendly their products are, and the people who fall for the line of male cow byproducts can feel good about all they're doing to protect the environment. Again, if you want to protect the environment then disinfect after every time you're on the water!
I have separate boots for Montana and my home waters that I keep in Montana. I then carry another set of boots with me just in case I go to Idaho or another Montana river other than the Madison. Then I have another set of boots for my home waters in Wisconsin. All are studded felts. I know most can't afford that but I got my boots free.
Eric,Quote:
Originally Posted by nighthawk
We want to catch the fish, not scare them to death. :mrgreen:
Yep, "as good as, or better than, felt was her claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Creek
Last August, I friend and I stopped at Simms headquarters in Bozeman to get a replacement for his Simms wading staff, and I got into a discussion with an (unnamed) Simms employee regarding their rubber soles. When I told this person about my troubles wading with these boots (sans cleats) in the Yellowstone River, the employee said I was the first person who had told them that.
While I have no doubt that the rubber is easier to clean than felt, at least today Simm's website make no blatently untrue claim that their rubber soles are as good as felt (where one would assume they meant better for wading, rather than better for cleaning).
I wear the Simms Guide boots with the Streamtread sole, without cleats. 60 + days on the water last year and no mishaps. I like them a lot. They have traction, grip on moss-covered rocks and do the job for me. They are more comfortable to walk in and in the winter they don't build up a dangerous mound of snow on the sole as felts do. I'm not here to argue with anyone, but I'm an advocate for the new rubber soles, they have won me over by their performance on the water.
Kelly.
John,Quote:
Originally Posted by John Rhoades
Just curious where you used your drift boat in YNP; I'm assuming either Yellowstone or Lewis Lake? Must be a booger to move in it when the wind kicks up.
Regards,
Scott
Kelly,Quote:
Originally Posted by kglissmeyer
If you can get around okay below Palisades Dam with them, I'd say that's a pretty good measure. I may still opt for the studs though; one reconstructive knee surgery (ACL) is more than enough for me.
Regards,
Scott
We've used it in Lewis Lake going to the Lewis/Shoshone channel. I have a 6hp Mercury motor for the boat, which moves the boat - slooowly - but I'm retired and have lots of time! I haven't been out on the lake when the wind REALLY kicks up, but I probably ought to have provisions along for spending the night somewhere on the shore if that happens. Or, plan on hiking out with those rubber soled Simms boots - they're good for that!Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottP
John,Quote:
Originally Posted by John Rhoades
I've done that hike; caught one middling brown and a decent mack, spent most of the transit time yelling "whoa bear!" every 20 seconds. A boat, even a slow one, would have been nice (lol).
Regards,
Scott
Amen to that; skating on those rocks has made my orthopedic surgeon a very rich man. It was always #1 in my book until I fished the Big Hole up by Dewey; for me, that place makes Rock Creek feel like I'm walking on pavement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Creek
Regards,
Scott
There must be someone on FAOL that has tried rubber soles on Rock Creek near Missoula. How about a report.
That would be the test for me personally. There are sections of Rock Creek that are just vicious.
Having said that, here is the latest review of rubber soled boots that I could find. If there is a later review or others that are valuable, please post the link.
http://troutunderground.com/2010/04/...g-conclusions/
I guess I'll have to switch to rubber soles in Montana eventually. I'm going to wait for the next round of rubber soles though. They seem to be making incremental improvements. If I were to buy a pair right now I think I'd go with the Orvis. Tom Rosenbauer is absolutely correct in that stud placement is critical. I confirmed that during my days as a boot tester for Weinbrenner.
Tom Rosenbauer, in one of his podcasts, talked about rubber soled wading boots. He said that, at this time, they do not equal felt regardless of claims by some manufacturers that they do. He also said that Orvis decided not to sell rubber soled boots without studs for safety reasons. Indeed, all Orvis rubber soled boots are studded.
My view is that there must be a reason Orvis doesn't do that. To the lawyers among us, is there an implied suitability of products that they are suitable for the purpose for which they are sold? I believe Orvis does not think plain rubber soled wading boots are suitable for their implied purpose of wading and to sell them without studs may present a legal liability.
.... Silver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Creek
I've wade fished several sections of Rock Creek totalling probably four miles of streambed with rubber soles. Yes, it is a tough stream to wade, and yes, it can be done safely with rubber soles, and without a wading staff, which I don't have.
I've used the stock Korkers ( older version ) unstudded rubber soles with waders and the Simms wading sandal rubber soles ( not the Vibram streamtread ) for wet wading. The Simms wading sandal soles perform better than the Korkers.
I've also used felt, and will add that it is better than the rubber soles. And behind that, I will add a personal opinion that being fit, observant, and careful are more important than the kind of sole you have on your wading sandals / shoes / boots.
Also, I've waded on the Lochsa, which I think is more treacherous than Rock Creek, with rubber soled wet wading sandals and wading boots without incident.
John
P.S. For all the wading I've done with either felt or rubber soled footware, I've only gotten wet a few times and never had an injury. I've had a number of injuries streamside where rubber is generally the sole of choice.
Here in NZ the ban on felt soles is into it's second season. It is however not against the law to move a kayak or raft full of water from one river to the next!
I can tell you that in 10 years of fishing the Tongariro with Felt soled boots I fell in twice, both times tripping rather than slipping. Since I changed to rubber soles I fall in at Least once on every trip!, The vibram soles simply do not have the same grip as felt on slippery, bouldery bottoms like that found on the Tongariro, They have proved fine for me on gravel and O.K, but not as good as felt, on bedrock.
All the best.
Mike
In fairness, I've found that Simms rubber soled boots WITH studs are not bad for wading, and they do an acceptable job on some easy wading, mostly small gravel bottom streams, like the West Branch of the Delaware River in the East, and portions of the Henry's Fork and the Missouri in the west.
However, it doesn't matter how fit, observant or careful you are, you simply can not wade and/or wade safely with them without spikes in them in rivers like the Yellowstone (downriver from the Park where I spend the summer). And, I don't consider the Yellowstone to be an especially difficult river to wade, but it has many large and smooth rocks that are virtually impossible to stand on with rubber soles alone.
Mike, I've found almost the exact same results here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Thomas
Although this isn't my first go round with rubber soles. I have an older pair of boots with studded ( carbide tip ) Aquastealths. While they have their weaknesses, they are in my opinion better than the new boot / sole combo even with the addition of studs.
So rather than just chucking them out or dumping them on eBay.
I've found an environmentally friendly - green way to get some use out of my new boots.
Thats $200 and some change gone to seed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave E
Man that is funny!!
All the best.
Mike
Nothing like a good old unbiased NYT article to help you make up your mind. ;)
FYI - I just received clarifying correspondence from Maryland DNR regarding their ban; the last public hearing was three days ago and the Maryland ban is scheduled for implementation on March 21st 2011 baring further delays.
Have fun Maryland anglers!
Thanks for the update. Looks like I'll still get to legally use my felts for at least part of the winter stonefly hatch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamboozle
Regards,
Scott
Anybody know what the penalty is? It may be worth some "civil disobedience" to avoid injury. Whats that old saw "dont do the crime unless you can do the time"?
Hmmmm...
More to ponder: http://singlebarbed.com/2011/01/13/d...of-watersheds/
From the aforelinked Singlebarbed entry:
I'd be interested in getting his source for that gem. If it's legit, that'd be a quick way to end the debate.Quote:
Now that the fissures in rubber shoe soles are being blamed for seed travel
Looks like you can add Oregon to this great debate as it seems there may be something in store for 2015. If the world doesn't end in 2012, that is.
http://oregonflyfishingblog.com/2011...e-legislature/
Jump on the ban wagon. Still don't agree with it. It will get a no vote from me.
Hey those fish would not die from fright they would die laughing if we all wade naked! Probably whirling around in circles from the fin slapping guffaws they will experience. Hey you guys forgot that you will have to disinfect all the ducks, geese and their fur bearing friends that move for m stream to stream.
Now you really don't want to take away a handy excuse from your DCNR, fish and game or yadda yadda to raise your license fees again do you? Not to mention your loving state and federal congress person or whatever they are will loose their handy excuse to raise taxes for increased law enforcement and showing mother nature the right way to care for a watershed.
It is YOUR Government. They work for YOU so remind them who is the boss. Vote them out of office, petition them to change the laws back, start your own organization (.org) and throw all of your felt soled gear on the steps of your capital building but don't just sit around whining without doing something! Probably won't do any good but it will give you some satisfaction that at least you tried.
Bad news from New Zealand. Despite the banning of felt soled boots and the stringent requirments for decontamination in NZ, dydimo continues to spread.
http://www.biosecurity.govt.nz/media...makariri-river
http://www.doc.govt.nz/about-doc/new...tasman-rivers/
http://www.doc.govt.nz/about-doc/new...per-rangitata/
Here's some possible good news out of New Zealand. So far only one study in 2006 with surprising results. I wonder why this study has not been repeated in other rivers to see if this a real finding.
Dydimo effects on river invertebrates: not as bad as feared?
"The researchers found that, in the didymo-affected rivers, the invertebrate drift density and biomass was actually highest at the sites with intermediate (in autumn) and highest (in winter) levels of didymo biomass. But the survey also confirmed that the invertebrate biomass contained a higher proportion of smaller species than is usually found in non-affected rivers, an effect that was more pronounced where volumes of didymo were higher.
While this effect was observed, the researchers said that, based on bioenergetics modelling, their results did not show that didymo affected invertebrate drift enough to negatively affect growth potential of drift-feeding brown trout.
This is encouraging news for anglers, but the Cawthron Institute researchers said that their results had to be interpreted with caution, because they were based on sampling in autumn and winter only, and limited to three sites."
http://www.biosecurity.govt.nz/publi...ssue-78/didymo
The results of this study begs for followup.