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I have to believe with this economy and the improvement of "lower end" rods the prices of S and W will have to drift down. Add to that the inventory of very fine rods these company's have discontinued the past decade. Sure, there will always be some people who need the newest but fewer can afford it than in the past.
Don't bet on it!
Back 15 years ago there was a "ceiling" price of $500 that no company dared to cross and rod prices were stable for a long time
.... then came "the movie" and all all that came with it.
All bets were off
Well... hasn't S lately offered more moderately priced rods and didn't W just announce their new, Twin Bridges built GVX at about $500.00?
It seems to me the major builders 'get it'. I know for sure my funds for buying high-end anything dried up with all of the jobs that got off-shored in search of short term profits.
My buying behavior changed when rod prices crossed that $500 threshold. At that point I moved to buying the heavily discounted discontinued items.Quote:
Originally Posted by dudley
I look forward to owning a Winston B3X and a Loomis NRX . . . . . . . sometimes around 2018 when they're on sale for 40% off.
In some respects it seems to be a chicken vs egg. You often times see comments from individuals on fly fishing forums - "I won't buy a rod that doesn't have an unconditional, lifetime, no questions ask replacement guarantee for breakage."
You can argue that attitude makes sense since they just dropped a bundle on a rod. Of course, part of the reason why the rod costs a bundle is to allow the manufacturer to offer such a generous policy.
I would. The G loomis NRX is about $800 for a single hander and $1100 for a double hander. I don't see prices going higher, in fact I see people rebelling against this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamboozle
Hi Deepcreek,
I have to be a bit of a killjoy on your question. I bought mid-price outfits like the Orvis Clearwater Outfits and Cabela's Clear Creek outfits. I like what I got and don't anticipate any further rod purchases barring theft or breakage. Now if Sage and Loomis slip into the $20 price range that might be another story. 8T :)
I wouldn't bet on it...
Hardy & Greys has a new major technical innovation in fly rods that is suppose to be as drastic and carbon fiber rods was when it came out against fiberglass...still in prototype production and testing but coming soon.
SINTRIX “silica nano matrix.” A full 60% lighter and 60% stronger than the current carbon fiber rods on the market today.
I don't imagine they will be to affordable by the masses for a long while yet and those who really like staying on top of the heap won't flinch at snapping them up.
ON THE OTHER HAND...
as the middle class keeps loosing ground...the fly fishing retailers and manufacturers will have to keep pace by offering more mid range and entry level priced product or loose the upcoming generation to the sport. We'll all loose if we can't keep the interest growing. Doing battle with computers and computer games and the new generation of potatoes isn't helping one bit either. Time to start encouraging more outdoor education opportunities into the regular school curriculum??
...and I keep my limit to under $300 for a rod...the closer to $200 the better. You can do wonders building your own or buying used.
We're two years into "the worse economy in decades" or should I quote, "the worst economy since the Great Depression" and I haven't seen anything go down at the top end. Heck some folks are taking 40 of their closest friends to Spain for vacations while the rest of us are staying at Motel 6 so the economy isn't hitting everyone the same way.
In any case the manufacturers will keep pushing the envelope at the top end and at the same time, "keep the light on" for the masses with new middle and low priced outfits.
I fully expect to see $900-$1000 graphite become commonplace in the next 5 years considering I've seen the top end go from $500 to $800 since 2004. Whether or not YOU can afford it or will choose to buy it may drive down the number of top end rods sold but the price for supposed top of the line products will continue to climb because there is an assumption by many that price equals quality. You may not agree with that assumption and many times it is far from the truth but if somebody wants to feel they have the best...
...they will gladly overpay for it.
gloomis latest fly rod, the nrx, is $700 - 1170 depending on model
Fly rod prices will never top out. Some fisherman will always want the latest and greatest and will be willing and able to pay top dollar for "State of the Art" equipment. If the rod manufacturers can make money selling low volume, expensive rods, they will continue to make them.
The proliferation of excellent rods at low to mid level prices ($175 to $350) has made it less necessary to spend top dollar to get great performing rods that come with reasonable replacement guarantees. You can buy two or even three good rods for the price of a new Loomis rod.
I will buy used if it seems like a good deal. In the last 4 years or so, I've bought Albright, G. Loomis, Loop, St. Croix, Sage, Echo, and a custom-built rod. Other than the Albright, most of the models were the lower-end or mid-range models from those companies. But whether new or used, I've managed to not spend more than $190 on a rod.
Ive tried the G Loomis nxr, Sage si3 and the Scott s4s all in 10 wt---all are awesome tools. Clearly better than anything i've used before. Each slightly different but i could throw a dart and be happy with any of them.
I guess im one of the reasons they can get that much for a rod----ill have a new one before i go to Cape Lookout this year.
The most expensive rods out there aren't even graphite.
The real top end rods dollar wise are the hand built cane rods. Many respected custom builders get in excess of $2K for these, and most of them have waiting lists.
I like to see the top end keep going up. That means that the filter down effect is working. The $50-$75 rod blank you could buy twenty years ago wasn't all that great, but the advances in technology have filtered down, and the $50-$75 blanks out there now are excellent. Heck, many of the $25 price range blanks are now really good.
In many ways, rod technology is following computer/electronics marketing dynamics. While the very top end is incredibly pricey, the lower and middle price ranges have improved immensely in quality while the prices have actually dropped. A rod that would have cost you $400-$500 with the Sage name on it twenty years ago is now availble made with the same technology and materials with out the name brand for under $100 (no it's not a 'Sage'- if you are hung up on names you're doomed to disapointment anyway).
It's now actually cheaper to get into fly fishing than it's been in years. You can buy a decent entry level rod/reel/line kit for under $75. The rod in that kit is superior to ANY graphite rod built 30 years ago. Waders are out there for less than $50. Wading boots for $30. The price of flies has dropped dramatically with the internet offerings infringing on what used to be a pretty insular market. Float tube prices have dropped, many well under $100 now. Even leaders and tippet prices are dropping in response to global marketplace competition.
You really can't base your perception on the price of the sport on what Sage and Winston charge for rods. That's like looking at the price of Ferrari or Lotus and deciding that no one can afford to drive.
Good Luck!
Buddy
Hi, I am in the fly fishing industry. A shop owner I know tells me he does not sell any rods over $300. Just a year or two ago he picked up Sage, which requires a HEFTY INVESTMENT, and within a year he dropped them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamboozle
Buyers simply arent paying what they were 7 years ago. I was impressed that the Hardy Sintrix rods are only about $600, but those are made in South Korea.
Let me just take a deep breath and say...God I hope so. Though I must confess I do like the "trickle down" effect of being able to pick up company X's 300 - 400 dollar stick from 5 years ago as company Y's $100 stick.
In the 1960's a top of the line Fenwick glass sold for about $45. I couldn't afford one then. The thought of a $100 rod seemed impossible (to me at least). I was making about $100 per week at the time. Gasoline was a quarter a gal., a loaf of bread was 15 cents and beer was a dollar a 6 pack. Have rod prices "topped out"...... hell no.
I still can't believe you are blaming the cost of fly rods on a movie that came out 18 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by dudley
and all the NRX spey rods are over $1,000. Thank you Loomis for building a rod that only 1% of the population can afford. lol. I think the prices will continue to go up, for all the "latest and greatest" but I think we'll see more and better mid-priced offerings.Quote:
gloomis latest fly rod, the nrx, is $700 - 1170 depending on mode
I'm a low end guy. Once I took up putting my own rods together (I won't say "building" because that implies far more skill than I possess) I realized that a decent rod can be had for a very reasonable cost. I've rebuilt all the manufactured rods I've owned, and in every case it came out better than what I bought originally. I can't see paying hundreds of dollars for something that I am most likely going to break in the woods anyway.
That said, if you love high end equipment and it adds to your enjoyment, I say more power to you! Enjoy! If you pay $800 for a rod, it is going to perform for you like my econo-rods never will. There is nothing wrong with enjoying the fruits of success. :)
Nope, prices will continue to go up. Even the imports will continue to increase in price. However, more companies are doing the entry level, good, better, and best pricing strategy.
The current recession effects will dampen price increases in the near future, but he economy will imrove and rod prices will escalate in the future. It is the American Way!
My opinion? You asked.
No top out EVER...people of a certain ilk will always seek the "best", whaether it is or not.
EVERY rod company has a rod priced for the beginner to the person who will spend whatever for a rod.
simply buy what you are comfortable in spending.
Or....wait until somebody gets tired of this years rod NEXT year....and buy it off of them for 1/3rd the selling price:^))))))
My opinion is to buy a fly rod that makes you happy.
My wife's opinion... if you buy a rod that costs $800 it better come with the trout already attached.
Paul
I KNEW my wife had other sisters scattered around the country!Quote:
Originally Posted by branhap
hardy has offered graphite rods well over $1000 for years
I am a bamboo rod maker and my prices are going up somewhere between 30% to 40%. I have had a couple of design changes that are improvments to the rods I make and now I have to recoup my R & D cost. As an example, I now deep draw ferrules from NS sheet. I have enough in press work dies that I will be a long time getting that money back. But, the ferrules I make are much better than what I was using before. I have around five hours labor in making a set of ferrules. Yes, the new ferrules add to my production cost but they also improve the quality if the finished product. Freight cost have gone up a bunch also. While The customer pays the freight for the rods I ship, I still have to pay the freight on material coming to me.
I am sure all manufactures are seeing the same increased cost for energy, shipping, tax increases, insurance expense and a host of others that I am seeing. These are all a minus to the profit column. When the profit column goes negitive, the business goes out of business.
As others have said, the quality many of the lower priced rods have benifited from the prices charged for the upper end of the product from a given company.
Fly fishing is not an expensive sport to get into. Have you priced a new bass boat latley? Or the truck to pull it with to get from one super lake to another? Or the price of the newest super plug that will have bass coming to it from miles away?
In the end , the price of the product has little to do with the cost to produce it. The price of a product has everything to do with what others are willing to pay for that product. When the price gets so high that people are unwilling to pay for it the price either is reduced to the point that people will again buy it or the producer goes out of business. Economics 101
fishbum
I have to say that I'm a bottom feeder with boutique tastes. I've only paid full price for three rods - the first one I bought, my wife's first rod (a TFO CFR 8wt), and my Norling bamboo. All of my other rods have either been used, closeout models, or more unfortunately, bought from shops that were going out of business.
I don't think rod prices are going to top out. There are always going to be folks willing to pay the price for a perceived advantage. I do think fly rods are getting better over time, but not so much that it would be worth paying $300 more for a "new" model when the "old" model is sitting right next to it. In fact, with a lot of the trend towards faster and faster actions, often the "old" model might suit your casting stroke better.
Businesses close, new businesses open. Models come and go. There will always be opportunities for folks to find a great rod at a great price. May not always be the length you're hoping for (often you can find a great deal on an 8' 6" 5wt vs a 9' 5wt, for example), but they're out there if you're willing to look and wait a while.
I once challenged a friend to a blind taste test between my lowly beer brand and his more expensive German import. Guess which one won!
Have you ever blind tested a fly rod?
Plastic rods topped out for me about 30 years ago.
I have been thinking about building more rods. I like the higher end rods but I also like mi-priced rods. If I knew more about what blanks were out there I would probably start rolling more of my own. I guess I should just buy a blank, build it, then if I don't like it, sell it for what I have in it.
I haven't blind tested fly rods but a magazine sort of did a 5 weight blind test a few years ago. I mean 'sort of' because anyone who followed new rods back then knew a Loomis GLX handle from another and the different blank colors of certain rods. The winners were both a very high end rod (Loomis GLX) and a reasonably priced rod (Cabelas Stowaway I believe)Quote:
oldster... Have you ever blind tested a fly rod?
A true blind test would be blanks colored the same with identical hardware on them. They did this years ago with racing bike tubing. They had a builder build up different tube sets with identical hardware and geometry and simply numbered the frames so the testers had no idea which tube set they were test riding. This was back when steel was the frame material of choice. The reviewers rated the frames on different qualities and only AFTER entering their impressions of the frames were they told which frame number matched which tube sets (Reynolds, Columbus etc.) Some cyclists are as fanatical about gear as some fly fishers!
This is a test I would love to see done on rod blanks (or better yet, take part in!) but who the heck could afford to?
the people who buy $1000 rods!! But then their egos would be crushed and the results would never be spoken of again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackster
I've seen quite a few of the 'comparison' testing of fly rods articles done by various magazines and few TV shows.
Almost every one of them came out structurally the 'same'. They'd state, after whatever battery of 'tests' were complete, that the 'best' rods were a couple of the high end rods and one mid to lower priced rod that they'd claim to 'surprised' about.
I'm not saying the results are 'scripted'. Just that it's curious that they all seem to come out that way.
I'm a bit of skeptic about these things and find it also interesting that the 'winning' rod manufacturers all had quite a bit of advertising space in the magazines where these articles appeared. I'd never suggest that there might be a bit of a financial motive influencing how the test came out. Not with the hard hitting style, high journalistic morals, and well established credibility of the outdoor press .
Okay, fantasy over....;)
In reality, any 'test' conducted on fly rods by humans is so subjective as to be meaningless to anyone but the casters who do the test. I have friends who have searched for years for the 'perfect' fly rod. Once they find 'it', and many times it turns out to be an older rod with a more moderate action-often even a glass or cane rod, it's seldom a top end high dollar rod. I've picked up these 'perfect for them' rods and couldn't stand some of them. They didn't like my choices all that much either.
Humans are adaptable. The vast majority of us adapt to cast with the rods we buy, not buy the rods that cast best for us. I own several dozen rods. I can cast all of them. Some I like better than others, but all serve their purpose and let me cast the fly and catch the fish.
There are machines out there that can 'test' performance of a rod, but no machine can test for 'feel'.
Buddy
I don't know about the topping out price thing, but I don't think we have seen the top yet. I do know a few things about manufacturing and marketing how ever. How these high end companies have been able to convince logical intelligent people that an $800 fly rod casts better and will land a 3 pound or smaller trout easier than a $400 rod that is generally built from the same materials, is beyond me. I should qualify my opinion slightly by saying that I have never cast a high end rod and the best rods that I own are a Sage Launch and 2 Cabelas LSTs in 4wt, 3wt, and 5wt respectively. These rods certainly cast better than my skill level so why do I need a more expensive rod? They have landed lots of trout, bass, bluegills, and a few catfish with out breaking or any other undo strain, so how would a more expensive rod help me there? There may be some more pronounced differences in some of the heavier duty or salt water outfits but I don't use them so I don't know.
I do know that the fixed operating expenses and much of the variable expenses of manufacturing a $300 or a $500 or a $800 rod in the same length and weight range are all the same. So even with the added expense of those unconditional warranties, and what they have for shipping and minimum service charges if the company makes a acceptable profit on the $300 rod they are making nearly 3 times that profit on the $800 rods. Economies of scale say that if you produce more of a product then the actual cost of that product actually goes down because the ONLY added expense is the small cost of additional raw materials, and perhaps some extra labor costs. All the fixed costs like buildings, equipment, electricity, water, insurance, and taxes basically stay the same. Research and development costs and advertising costs go up for the new high end rods but that is pretty much it. Also those advertising dollars help to convince those of us who can't actually afford the $800 rod that the same company's lower end rods must be far better than some of the other brands that the company sells more of the $300 which aren't bothered by those additional costs associated with the high end ones. We are all victims of the marketing industry. What I am more concerned about is the increase in the costs of fly lines, which now cost almost as much as many lower end rods. $70 for a fly line is too much in my opinion.
That happened bout 10 yrs ago for me... at some point everyone has the Opif.... that hey.. Why the hell am I layin out all this cash for another stick thats gonna sit in the closet... cause I have three rods that are Always first in line to go depending on what n where i'm planning...