CONFESSIONS - Neil - September 6, 2010

CONFESSIONS

Recently the Ladyfisher and I took a day trip to West Yellowstone, Montana to attend the Federation of Fly Fishers Fly Fishing Fair & Conclave. The last Conclave that I attended was here in Livingston in 2006. There was the normal cadre of fly tiers working their magic for the benefit of the crowds, some casting ponds out back of the exhibit hall, some drift boats on the front lawn, and a small assortment of vendors inside the main exhibit hall. Not much has changed except it seemed smaller, the crowds were sparser, and most of the attendees [including yours truly] were several years older.

Well said Neil. Thank you.

My casts are not pretty, can't double haul and most of my flies are ugly. PTN are tied with longer tails and thinner bodies. Fish still seem to like them.

Rick

I'll probably always be a tyro when it comes to tying and fly fishing, but I do have fun.
Thanks for letting me hear that not everyone has to be an expert. Fishing for fun, what a unique idea!!
Good article, Neil.
Thanks,Rodger

One of the best articles we have had in many years!
Thanks Neil.

Wow,

Very well put, Thanks for the fresh breeze sensability...that we often see here!
Flyfisher121

Being that for most of us fly casting is such an intregral part of this sport/hobby of fly fishing, why not be the best you can be at it?
It's like a friend of mine says, "I catch all of my fish within 20' " to which I wonder how many more he would catch if he could cast effectively to 30 or 40'... or learn to do ariel mends... or reach casts... or...
The certification process for fly casting can be, and in my opinion is a good thing. It means that an instructor has a proven ability to show good casts as well as show poor casts and provide the means to remedy the poor casts. For what it's worth, the double haul isn't just for distance, it is a very useful tool to have to cast normal distances with much less effort, or fight the wind, or tuck a tight loop under an overhanging rhodo.
As much as many would like to belive, there is no downside to casting well.

As for the conclave, it broke my heart I couldn't make it out to W. Yellowstone this year. I usually base around there every August and to have the conclave there again this year! Rats!

Jackster, would have loved to have seen you. Keep on casting my friend - there is no downside to casting well.
Hugs,
LF

Well said Neil. I don't agree with the way things have gone either and I am a fly fishing instructor.

Neil,

I have to agree with most of what you have conveyed. Once you have the basics mastered you WILL catch plenty of fish and have a ton of fun doing so. When I first started fly fishing & tying I used less than 6 patterns and caught plenty of fish. I was even able to sell those flies to other fishermen who saw that I was doing so well!!!LOL BTW, I was 12 or 13 yrs. old at the time. Did I have to progress any further than that to catch fish? Not really!!! I graduated from a Shakespeare Wonder rod(8 1/2' 8wt -a real girder) to a 6' 5wt. Fenwick glass rod which I threw everything including size 4 streamers with. When you only own one rod you adapt. Many folks stop at this stage for awhile or even permanently and are quite content. Good for you! I don't have that kind of self restraint. I have the tendency to go overboard!!!! Some folks say you can never have too many fishing rods! From personal experience I must disagree!!!LOL Whoa! did I just break some kind of unwritten rule by just admitting that!!! Anyway, the wonderful thing about any kind of fishing, but particularly fly fishing is that there are any number of directions you can take if you are inclined to - rod building/net making/leader tying/making your own rod tubes/reel bags/rod sleeves , even your own hooks. If you get bored with one facet of fly fishing there are always a trove of other areas to pique your interest and imagination, enough to last several life times. Enjoy! You know, now that I think of it, this FAOL site itself is surely a part of that whole experience!!!!!

Best regards, Dave S. (fishdog54)

being new to fly fishing, and having attended a school to get started, i must say it has made a difference to us to have some sort of "qualification/certificate/credential" to look for when hiring a guide or instructor. for the first year or so, any sort of B.S. would sound okay to us, and the results were predictable, but when we stuck to "name brand" folks, we were uniformly pleased. we learned a lot and had a good time.

those lucky enough to have learned by themselves as youngsters on clean streams with flies tied out of gleanings from their mother's sewing baskets are to be much envied. those of us who reached retirement unversed in the arcane skills of this wonderful sport have to take shortcuts. those shortcuts are often paved with paper. those attempting to make a living from this sport have discovered this, and want to be able to offer that paper. diff'rent strokes, folks! room for everyone in this boat!

Absolutely Casey - and room for everyone here on FAOL too. Welcome aboard!

Dear Friends,

I think that some of you have missed the point of my article. First, if becoming a casting guru is your thing then go for it. If you want to master ever type of cast and get a certificate to prove that you can do them then go for it. If you want to tie flies that are suitable for framing then set down at the vice and crank them out.

I have been involved in various aspects of the fly-fishing 'business' for over a half of century, and JC and I were teaching fly casting and fly tying classes before most people had even heard of such a thing. We taught 'proper techinque' but our emphasis was to produce fly-fishers and not just fly casters. The purpose of fly casting - if your intent is to use flies to catch fish - is to enable you to present your imitation to the fish in such a manner that the fish will conclude it's edible. Now, granted, proper casting techniques may make the process easier but some of the finest "anglers" that I have had the privilege of sharing the water with had some of the most unorthodox casting styles. I sincerly doubt that Halford, Skues, Gordon or a host of the old masters could qualify for a casting certificate. The only critic that an 'angler' needs to satisfy with their casting or fly tying ability are the fish.

Over the years I have had extensive contacts with some of the finest fly fishing guides from around the country and if they have one complaint that I hear more often than any other is not that their clients can't cast but that they can't fish. Several years ago [nearly 30 now] I was asked by the late Dan Bailey to take a famous fly caster out on the Yellowstone and show them some place where they could fish for a few hours. What I discovered when we arrived at the river was that, although this person had forgotten more about fly casting than I ever knew, they did not have the slightest idea how to cast so that they could fool a trout. This famous caster did not understand drift, line control, or any of the other aspects of fly-fishing that are fundamental to the sport. The casting was flawless, great loops, impressive distance, but this was fly-fishing not fly casting. That singular experience has remained clear in my mind to this day.

My motive is to cause my readers to think, and to question why they do certain things. Do you need to be a 'certified caster' and if so why? To be considered a fly-fisher do you have to master all the various casts in order to become a successful angler? Are we feeding our egos rather than feeding the fish? That's a question that only each individual angler can answer. The real question might be, are we willing to ask the question of ourself or are we afraid of the answer?

The Chronicler

Well said, I'v told many folks (along the same lines) when they ask "well did you catch fish? How big? I always say the same thing, its not all about big fish and how many, its about, How I go about catching them. They don't understand that. If all I'm after is a big fish then I can walk over to the freezer in the store and catch all I want... With that they begin to get an idea.... So if I can cast from one shore line to the other, ok cool, but there ain't no fish on the bank on the other side iether... A nice soft cast into a good drift, with a fly sittin pretty on the wate,r and the fish below just know a fly has landed in there feeding lane, then life is good.......;)

I get it now, the cast doesn't matter as long as you have the right fly! ;)

All else being equal except the ability to put the fly where you want it and in such a way as to prevent drag, I'll go with the fisherman who presents the fly the best through skilled casting as the better 'fisherman'.
Say what you will, I still say a skilled and talented fisher who is also a skilled and talented caster is the better fisherman over the duffer.
Is it a known fact that Halford, Skues and Gordan were great fisherman or were they just skilled wordsmiths?

Sign me up for the back of the DRUM line......probably the worst caster you ever saw yet I have introduced several to fly fishing and they all cast better than me......Go figure......I love to be on the water whether it be warm or cold and I thank God for every opportunity I get.......By the way I thought there was some kind of Federal or State law the said you can't have "just" one fly rod......you mean there isn't.......I'll be .......You people at FAOL are the greatest........

Fish on............and Tight lines........

Florida Dave

No, I don't think you need a diploma to prove you can cast. I've never had a minute of casting instruction. I've pulled some fish out of some pretty difficult situations that I'm pretty proud of. I will also tell you that I have not caught some fish that I should have because of a lack of skill in certain areas.In particular I am in serious need of learning to double-haul. I won't use that skill that often, but when you have to walk away from a nice fish or a difficult fish because you don't know how to perform a certain cast thats too bad. I'd like to "clean" up my casting- I've gotten a little sloppy which could put a good fish down. The creek I fish in can be very demanding. Lots of over hanging trees/multiple currents/fish hugging the far bank. Put all three of these situations together at once and you have a typical scenario that I deal with. I'ts fun but can be very technical if you see what I mean. AND the fish you are trying for under those over- hanging branches is sipping on #24 BWOs!!! You do need accuracy. The less you have to cast over a fish the better. Right? Just as GRUBB said, its all about how you catch them not how big/many! Hope I have helped. BTW, I also carry a pair of binoculars around my neck and can be seen standing in the middle of the creek watching the birds/mink/ deer/turkey and other wildlife. I also use them to spy on those trout under the branches across the creek!!!

Best regards, Dave S. (fishdog54)

I've had casting sessions with JC, LadyFisher and a Certified Casting Instructor here in Tullahoma. They have all helped me become a better caster which equates to a better fly fisher!! They all taught the basics and let you develop your own "Style". Could they cast for distance? Yes! Could they do all sorts of fancy casts! Yes! Very fun to watch and it just added to their credibility as teachers. Teacher should be highly skilled in their craft if they are to earn the respect of the student.

JC and LadyFisher were very determined to teach us, the average fly fisher, to be able to teach others. I remember a pleasent afternoon at Gate's Ausable Lodge where JC used the "Kill The Spider" method to teach a young lady fly casting! The next day her husband reported that she was now a better caster than he was! And, she caught more fish!:D

It seems that today one must have the proper credentials hanging on the wall to be considered a "Teacher", "Doctor", etc. Can I teach you to Fly Cast? Yes, if you listen! Do I have any papers to prove I can? No! And it's all free any way!;)

THANK YOU NEIL! I bow to your wisdom, sir. My sentiments exactly. It's sad to see or hear folks who want to take up this fun activity but decide that it's just too difficult. WHY? Because some make it a sport of perfection and competition. I love fly fishing because it's a personal thing. It's learned at a personal speed and for personal need. Me, I just want to trick a fish into taking my fly. How I get it there is learned from all the time spent on the water doing just that and having a bucket full of fun. I also learn from everyone I meet. Some info I gobble up, and some I cast aside. It's all about what works for me. It's also about how it's presented to me. I would rather ask for help and get it from those I invite to do it, rather then have someone come to me, uninvited, give me a long list of credentials then proceed tell me what I'm doing wrong.

Some...to many, turn fly fishing into a competitive thing. In my opinion, from years of observation, that's what's keeping new folks from trying it or sticking with it. It takes me about 20 minutes to teach a beginner how to catch a fish on a fly rod. That's it. That's all the really need. It also only take a badly tied bit of fur and feathers to get a fish. After a little success, they can be hooked for life. It's best to leave the rest to them. They will ask the questions, do the research and put in the time to learn what they need or want to know. I don't like being a critic. If that fly works or the cast gets the fly where it needs to be...GREAT! It's too easy to turn them off if the "pro" comes in and starts tearing apart the cast or the fly or the technique. If they're catching fish...what else do they really need? Just time on the water, and mentors that know when to give them the time, the ear and what they want to know....and above all, keeping it fun. There is nothing wrong with seeking perfection, if that's what you want. Just remember, not everyone wants or needs it.

I don't have a certificate. I don't need one. I've had instructors out to our club. Some with "certification" and many without. It really doesn't matter. I do know I get turned off, listening to the odd few, who like to spend too much time talking about their qualifications (FFF certification) to justify that they know more then others. I'd rather just see them teach a new concept and leave the certifications and long list of name dropping at home. I also want those without that glorified piece of expensive paper, to feel confident in their contributions. How do we develop new mentors with new ideas if we make them feel inferior without a piece of paper?

The thing I enjoy most about fishing is CATCHING fish. I love seeing or feeling the strike, feeling the strength of the fish, and then viewing the fish in hand. Fish are beautiful creatures. And I love seeing them swim away after our encounter. I hope to catch that fish again when its bigger.

Fly-fishing is just one way to reach my goal of catching fish, and I DO enjoy it more than other types of fishing. I don't particularly enjoy sitting and watching a bobber. And I certainly don't enjoy trolling lures around behind a boat waiting for a fish to hook itself so I can reel it in. Some people do enjoy those things.
I'm glad they can enjoy doing what they like, and I'm VERY glad I can fish the way I enjoy.

What does that have to do with casting vs. fishing? To me, casting is a PART of fishing....it is a way to deliver a fly or lure to the water, so that it can be presented to the fish in such a way that the fish want to strike it. Casting pretty is not my intended goal. I'd rather cast ugly and catch fish, than cast pretty and NOT catch fish. In some situations, maybe casting pretty is the BEST way to catch more fish. In that situation, I'm sure my casting would improve over time out of necessity.
I'm probably the worst fly-caster there is, because almost all of my fly-fishing is done along wide open shorelines with few objects to tangle in. Even then, especially if its windy, I'm known to occasionally get my fly tangled around my rod somehow. But I can usually catch fish, and that makes me happy.

I taught a young woman how to fly-fish last year, and we have fly-fished a couple times this year too. I gave her some general instructions and philosophy, but for the most part I let her do her own thing with the casting. She catches fish, and that makes HER happy. If she enjoys it, she'll continue fly-fishing. The more she fly-fishes, the better her casting will get, and she'll catch even more fish. So overall, I consider it a success!

I have a deep appreciation for that that can REALLY cast well. If I'm fishing in a situation where I need to learn some new casting techniques in order to place the fly in areas I can't reach with my current skills, then of course I'd want to learn from somebody who KNOWS how to do it, and it capable of teaching the technique to others.

My fly-tying reflects my philosphy too, unfortunately. I catch fish on my flies, but the flies aren't usually "presentation-worthy".
Maybe I'm a guy that can drum up excitement in others for fly-fishing, but somebody else should probably show them how to do it properly?

Mato... Don't you know I just HAVE to respond? :D

Shoot me if I just couldn't let that kid strangle himself with that new SA fly fishing kit as he flung the line all over himself on the Ausable South Branch one evening. He parents were sitting there making out as this poor kid just struggled. From my point of view he didn't seem to be having a great deal of fun and he dang sure wasn't catching any fish. Because I happen to be a certified instructor would the right thing to do have been to leave that kid demoralized and frustrated, never to pick up a fly rod again or give him a few pointers? I took the high road and asked if I couldn't show him some basics. When I roll casted a good bit of line out just to straighten it his jaw dropped... 'You mean MY fly rig can do THAT?' was the look in his eye. The kid was a good study and I'm sure is pestering his folks all the time to get back out there.
Personally, I can't think of any but one CCI who flaunts that hard-earned piece of paper. When you get the cert you also get a vest patch and a badge to wear telling the world you've passed. I have yet to see either of those being worn at any of the MANY casting functions I attend yearly. Have you?
I know peope who fancy themselves casting instructors yet they themself can't keep their back cast out of the water behind them. I think it is good to have some semblance of a standard to which those who call themselves instructors must reach just as I'm glad to see diplomas at doctors offices. Anyone could cut you open and look around but it takes a certain something to fix you.
We all fish for our own reasons and some of us, believe it or not, enjoy the mechanical aspects of this sport as much as the tug at the end of the line. Are we wrong? During the week I may not get to the water, that does not mean I can't find enjoyment going to my local park and practicing different casts? What you might be saying is the golfer who hits a bucket of balls when they can't squeeze in a game is an egotistical fool instead of simply a person trying to improve their game for their own enjoyment.
Now please, those who disagree give me some of the negatives of being able to cast well remembering that casting IS a very intregal part of this sport and a major thing that separates us from the bobber using worm dunkers fishers and Tenkara proponents.

By the way, my tail is too long, my body too fat and I don't have any more hackle. Just sayin'. I remember living in West Yellowstone when the FFF was quite young and attending one of their first conclaves. It filled the entire old railroad station and was a madhouse full of visitors.

Thanks for the great article.

kelly

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jackster

.... those who disagree give me some of the negatives of being able to cast well remembering that casting IS a very intregal part of this sport and a major thing that separates us from the bobber using worm dunkers fishers and Tenkara proponents....

---

And how many times have you used a Tenkara rod to go fly angling ?????

tenkara, traditional, eastern, western, usa, europe, don't need defended. respect the fact that each will choose a style.

I fished very much like it decades ago but with a long piece of bamboo. Very effective indeed. My Grandmother was a true expert at it and could cast that thing the entire length of the rod itself! ;)

Jackster,

I think that given the scenario that Mato relayed, she is absolutely correct, and you are absolutely correct given your scenario! I do believe that it is important to ask the person for their permission (which you did with that young person) and probably even more so with an adult - because egos could be involved! IMHO, I don't think you can over estimate the importance of good casting techniques. You can wear yourself out in short order if your flailing about and not letting the rod do the work it was designed to do. You need to master the basics in order to break the rules when the occasion arises. You would not believe some of the gyrations I have to go through while attempting to get a fly through some of the over hanging vegetation around here!!! If I need to learn, say a reach cast, and you cast out there executing a wonderful reach cast, thats all the certification I need to see. The nice thing about fly fishing is that you can participate in it at a very basic level or go nuts - fly tying, rod building, net making, instructing others, joining conservation groups, ie. TU,FFF, and last but not least participating in on-line sites like FAOL!!!!

Best regards, Dave S. (fishdog54)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jackster

Mato... Don't you know I just HAVE to respond? :D

snip...

---

Jackster,

I don't necessarily disagree with you're point of view. However, if you felt the need to reply to mine directly than you didn't really understand mine.


Your response re: the boy frothing the river..."Because I happen to be a certified instructor..." ??? (could be a case in point?) I would hope that anyone who thought they could offer a helpful pointer would feel that they could...certified or not. (but by all means, make sure the help wanted!) What I have found is when someone is in that boat (having difficulty), they will more often than not, make a comment to the observer, like "wow, you cast really well...", or I'm really having trouble with (what ever)... Those can be taken as requests for help. You can also tactfully offer a suggestion but try it after opening the door and establishing trust with other kinds of conversation first. Most of the time, I've had them ask me for help before I was tempted to offer it. I've also been on the river when someone will walk up to me and offer unsolicited advise. I don't like it and I'm more apt to turn off than listen.

With regards to your comment: "When you get the cert you also get a vest patch and a badge to wear telling the world you've passed. I have yet to see either of those being worn at any of the MANY casting functions I attend yearly. Have you? " Well actually, YES! I have seen a lot those Certified Casting Intsructor badges on shirts around here. " It's also the first thing out of their mouths when you bump into them, too... "I'M A CERTIFIED Casting Instructor". Fine and dandy....but I've received as much or more quality instruction and information from non certified mentors and instuctors as from certified ones.

I know you well enough to know that casting is really very important to you. That's A-OK with me! I thought I made that clear in my previous post! My point was that I just think it's too easy to turn a beginner off fly fishing if too much emphases is placed on casting perfection (or fly tying perfection), early in their journey. They will seek out perfection as they grow in the sport...at their own pace. Like you, I do find casting relaxing. I practice all the time...but for my own enjoyment, and I won't flog the next guy for not wanting to do the same. I just don't think having THE paper and badge is the the only measure of a good mentor/ instructor, nor a reason why one can't give someone assistance if they have reached a skill level where they feel confident enough to offer help to the floundering fellow next to them. I like the philosophy of "see (learn)one, do one, teach one". It might not be perfect but it's how we can learn and gain confidence at the same time.

...and with that kid... it's too bad the parents let him struggle as you described. It would have been better to get him over to the local blue gill pond and let him have some success before leaving him to his own devises on a trout stream. (re; the parents...not you!) And my opinion here....Beginners...especially Kids, need quick success. They don't have the patient to perfect the cast to the point where I see many instructors push them. If they can get a fly out on the water 15 feet and catch a blue gill (gotta love those little bass turds), you have the kid hooked. Worry about perfection later...a lot later. The good old KISS method!!

Your last line: "Now please, those who disagree give me some of the negatives of being able to cast well remembering that casting IS a very intregal part of this sport and a major thing that separates us from the bobber using worm dunkers fishers and Tenkara proponents.", sort of made the point...you're an FFF certified casting instructor.

Thank you Mato - you got my point perfectly.

The Chronicler