First Deer Hair bugs

OK, guys, don't be too harsh.

These are my first attempts at tying deer hair bugs.

The whole trimming thing must be a black art. I tried a razor blade and I tried scissors. I came closer to having something that looked like a bug with the scissors. The razor made them pretty slab sided. I guess it takes practice.

The razor was good for making the bottom side flat.

Here are some photos. Let me know what I did wrong.

Thanks,
Jeff

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...s/P2070001.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...s/P2070007.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...s/P2070009.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...s/P2070010.jpg

Looks good Jeff. One of the tricks to trimming deer hair is having a high density of spun hair. The trick to dense hair is not packing it as you spin it (although you do need to do this), but using more hair at a time. A common description of hair amount is a "pencil worth" meaning a bundle of hair the diameter of a standard pencil. 2 to 3 'pencils' at a time will get you a good density 4 will be even better. It usually takes time to get to the point you can comfortably work with that much hair, but the end result is worth it. Just keep at it.

Jeff,

I have yet to try spinning deer hair and may one day. I think you are off to a good start. On the trimming, I have read that some people use a battery beard trimmer. I don't know if that is a help or not, so, you will have to let me know.

I think you are doing good...

Jeff,

Those are some nice bugs - wish my first attempt came out that nice.

You did a nice job keeping the hook gap clear of deer hair and the symmetry of the bug's body is good both from the side view and the top view. Looks like you have some good quality deer hair for spinning - probably the most important thing.

Did you just spin bunches of hair or did you pack them? I think your bug body could be a bit more dense. It's tough to tell from the photo, but it looks like you used some black deer hair for the bug's eyes. You could always cut a little indentation with your scissors after you are done trimming the bug and then glue some doll eyes into them.

Trimming a deer hair bug is just a matter of practice, practice, practice. Remember you can always bend the razor blade to help you cut curves on the bug. I like to use a razor blade to get a nice flat bottom, then I rough shape the bug with curved scissors, and "smooth" it out with the razor blade.

Hope this helps,

Alberto

Jeff,

I hate spinning deer hair so I let my wife do it. A couple things I've noticed when she's working.

There's no such thing as overcleaning deer hair. She makes sure all the underfur is out of her bundle before she spins or stacks it.

Once the bundle is spun, she packs it tight against the preceding bundle, gives her very dense looking bugs.

She uses curved scissors with micro serrations to rough trim the hair then tidies up with a double edge razor blade that she breaks in half. The double edge is thinner so it bends easily to fit the curves of the fly and it's sharper than a single edge blade. Cover the broken side of the blade and the ends with a couple strips of duct tape.

REE

Thanks for the tips.

I did try to pack it as best as I could. I used the hollow end of a ball point pen (had to cut it back some to fit over the hook eye. I would tie in a bunch, pack it back, tie in a bunch, pack it back, and keep going until I got to the end.

Is there a better way to do it? I've seen tools for this, are they worth the investment?

As for the eyes, I wish I was talented enough to use black deer hair. I cheated and used a sharpie.

I tried to use some super glue and glue doll eyes on like I do with my poppers.

On poppers, gluing the doll eyes isn't a problem. For some reason, on the deer hair, I ended up making a mess and gluing my index finger to my thumb with a doll eye between them. It was actually kind of funny in a "you had to be there" kind of way.

I'm not really sure how to spot good spinning hair from not good spinning hair.

I picked up a yellow patch and a green patch at a shop a year or so back that looked heavy and dense.

I used a fine tooth comb to comb out the fuzzy under fur before I tried to spin it.

One trick I learned after my first fly was to not lay down a thread base. It seems the hair spins around the bare hook a lot easier than it does when there is thread there. I'm not sure if that is right but it seemed to work better for me.

I'll try to find a way to pack it better. Also, I may not have used big enough bundles. A pencil thickness. I probably used half that amount.

On the "stripes" that's an average of 2-3 bundles per stripe. I guess if I used more hair per bundle, I'd have 1-2 bundles per stripe.

I'm reasonably happy for a first atempt. I reckon they'll catch fish.

I thought it was fun to try something new. It's kind of a mess with all the hair on the table after I cut it off. I think next time, I'll figure out a way to have something to catch it in so I don't have to sweep off the table so much.

Also, I've seen some deer hair bugs with a really flat face like a popper instead of the way mine turned out. Mine are more like divers or "sneaky Petes". How do you get that nice flat face on the bugs?

I tied these on Gamakatsu stinger hooks (smaller size 4 and the larger 1/0). What other hooks would you guys recommend or are the Stingers appropriate for this type of fly?

Sorry about all the questions. You guys can help save hours of trial and error and I appreciate the answers and feedback.

Jeff

Jeff
Two words for you...Chris Helm...

http://www.whitetailflytieing.com/

This is his website, but a search will turn up much more.

Brad

I will second the Chris Helm mention. He has two DVD's out on Spinning Deer Hair. Highly, highly recommended.

Jeff, good spinning hair will come from the deer's flank or stomach. if you look at it compared to the other hair it will look much larger and coarser. As for hooks, I prefer to use mustad 37187s, I think the new number is c52sbln. they are a bit longer and a bit lighter wire than the b10s's that you are using.

I'll third Chris Helm!
The packing tool I think best is the one Helm uses. Rather than slipping over the eye, as do most packers, which means the diameter of the packer is larger than that of the shank which results in pushing against the hair above the base, his is like a hand sprung clamp and moves the hair back right at the point of contact with the shank.

Having said that, Jeff, yours are much better than my first attempts! Bass_Bug's advice about the amount of hair spin is excellent, though It takes time and practice to handle four pencils worth of hair.

Happy spinning!
Coughlin

What Coughlin is saying about the packer is dead on. If the hole in the 'packer' (like a pen barrel) is larger then the hook diameter you will not pack as much as bend the hair over and push it back. What Coughlin is describing is like this from Brassie
http://hareline.com/images/harelinejpegweb/BHP.jpg

Or this from Anvil
https://www.docsflybox.com/sunshop/i...l_1760_APB.JPG

By clamping down to the hook THEN pushing back, you pack the hair and thread wraps for a much tighter pack then you'll ever get with something more hollow. Also the Anvil is solid brass and has plenty of weight/mass behind it to really help.

Also I'll add a vote for Chris Helm, however Helm has Dozens of videos and at least 6 on deer hair. All can be found here along with dozens and dozens of there great videos.
http://www.bennett-watt.com/Fly-Fish...artments/1193/

Jeff:

First, a critique of your two bugs. I agree with the others that, from the photos, the hair has not been packed tightly enough My vote is split on the trimming of the two, however. The bottoms of both, especially the dark barred one, could have been trimmed quite a bit closer to the hook shank, particularly at the butt end. You accomplish this by cutting the hair off with a double-edge razor blade as close to, and parallel to, the hook shank as you possibly can without cutting the thread. As you apparently don't have a snag (weed) guard on either of these, this problem can be quickly corrected on these two with the razor blade.

The first step to trimming is to flatten the bottom, as described above. Next, and I HIGHLY RECOMMEND curved scissors for this step, you hold the bug facing you and using the curved scissors, you cut the desired face outline about 1/8 inch deep starting on one side and working to the other (first start on the right side if you are right-handed). Next, you turn it such that you are looking at the bottom of it, butt-up. You now cut the desired bottom profile about 1/8 inch deep. You next do the same to establish the side-view profile by cutting the top down from front to back. You now proceed to follow the profiles you have established with your scissors until you get things down to what you want. Now is when you put the scissors down and take the razor blade in hand again and proceed to do the final "finish" trimming.

bass_bug: having watched Mike George tie his deer hair "art" work for four out of the last six years, I am forced to take exception to the inference that more hair at a time makes it easier to densely pack the hair. Mike has some extremely unique techniques that he uses in tying his flies, some of which may use no more that 2 or 3 hairs, to put spots on fish such as rainbow trout. Mike can pack his deer hair so tight the can actually finish them off by sanding with sandpaper!

Everyone should see his art work. He DOES NOT tie 'bugs" to fish with (at $75.00 a pop, who can afford to fish with them?). He is not a fisherman; he is an artist who uses deer hair as his medium, just like da Vinci used oil paints. If you watch some of his fish patterns VERY closely, you can, on occasion, see them move ever so slightly. (He has a daughter and son-on-law who live in Houston and combines a family visit with coming to tie at our annual Fly Tiers Festival. Didn't make it this year due to a show back east.)

I have had the privilege of watching Chris Helm tie in person on two different occasions, and of those who I know, and have seen work with deer hair, he and Mike are unquestionably the two best.

Some years ago Chris published a tutorial in one of the magazines outlining what the hair from each part of a hide was best for. I seem to recall he claims that the strip from down the very middle of the back is both the longest and best for spinning/stacking, with its quality for such use diminishing as you go down the sides. He may, as I recall, have this posted on his web site.

If these are your very first deer hair bugs, you definitely have a great future as a tier of deer hair bugs; and both of these will catch fish.

Cheers

2 things i've not seen mentioned is thread, like size and strength and how to spin the hair evenly around the hook's shank.

use the smallest diameter thread, highest break strength possible. smaller thread diameter will flair the hair much better.

spinning the hair around the hook shank is nothing more than practice, practice, practice. wrap the thread a couple times around the hair just tight enough to hold the hair on top of the hook shank and as the thread is drawn tight in a downward direction release the hair as it spins around the hook shank. when the hair starts to flair release it completely and pull down until the thread is tight. pull the hair to the rear of the hook, take several thread wraps, pull the hair back again and immediately in front of the previous spin and repeat the process. i've never used a hair packer but that'll depend on the indivual. use one if it's felt to be needed.

It was suggested to me here and I'll pass this on.

Just use you thumb nail to pack the hair...I even tried using a brassie, pen and then my own hand...each time I was able to move the fur further than the tool with my thumb.

I will also add to be sure your using one heck of a sturdy vise (I use my 9.99 thompson knock off...it holds a big hook like, well a vise) and don't be afraid of putting a small piece of cork on the hook point because you will eventually slip and impale yourself!

Quote:

---

and don't be afraid of putting a small piece of cork on the hook point because you will eventually slip and impale yourself!

---

Where was this tip about 3:00pm yesterday afternoon as I was pulling my thumb off of a 1/0 hook?:eek:

Yes, these are number 2 and 3 of my deer hair tying experience. I watched a couple You Tube videos and looked at a couple deer hair flies I bought last summer and thought "I can do this".

It's not as easy as it looks, especially the shaping part.

The reason I started using the barrel of an ink pen was because I was dripping blood from the wound in my thumb from when I slipped trying to use my hand to pack the hair.

Perhaps I just need to push harder or is there a trick?

Here's what I did. I would tie in 2 clumps and pack it back, tie in 2 clumps and pack it back. I kept doing this until I got up to the eye of the hook.

The first fly I laid down a thread base but that seemed to cause problems with the hair spinning and made packing harder so on the 2 pictured here, I just tied it to the bare hook.

Maybe I pulled the thread too tight is the reason packing didn't get as tight as it should have.

On the flat bottom, I'll fix that tomorrow. I can take a razor and cut it closer to the hook shank. I was afraid of cutting the thread and having a big wad of deer hair on the table that used to be on my fly.

I will never be an artist who can get 75 bucks for a fly but I hope I can get to the point where I tie these deer hair bugs and catch some bass with them.

It's something new to learn and I'm having fun with it. I'll be trying again over the weekend. If I tie up something that looks halfway decent, I'll post again for critique.

I very much do appreciate the critique so far. You guys have been a big help.

Jeff

Your bugs are fine as far I go!

They'll catch as well as any, really.

Spin a bunch, pull back the fibers, half hitch and pack...only reason I say this is that I see you stated spinning 2 then packing.

Just protect that hook (cork) and really pull back with your thumb nail and forefinger, you'll be surprised at how much it can be moved...brace the hook with your other hand.

Jeff:

All of the "pros" I have watched pack after every clump. I would think that waiting until after the second clump would take more effort, and possibly lead to a less dense bug. I suspect that your problem was due to packing only after every second clump; not too much thread tension as you suggest.

When you pack, whether by hand, as I do, or with the use of a packer, you always pack against the thumb and forefinger of the opposite hand. You are compressing the hair between the fingers of both hands and sliding the front bunch along the hook shank at the same time. If you pack by hand, this use of the opposite hand greatly diminishes the likelihood of a blood letting.

I do not half-hitch after each clump as many do. I simply put three turns of thread in front of the clump after pulling it back, and then pack; after which I take three or more turns of thread hard up against the base of the clump, and then advance the thread slightly towards the hook eye with one or two turns of the thread and the tie in the next clump.

After having worked with deer hair for several years, a commercial tier taught me a couple of differences in technique between spinning and stacking.

When you spin, take three turns of thread around the clump and, with the bobbin on the backside of the hook, release your tension on the thread briefly (simply let the bobbin hang!), relax your hold on the clump and then firmly pull the thread under the hook and directly towards your chest, releasing the hair as you do so: DO NOT pull either up or down.

When you stack, there are only two differences in the technique described above. You take only TWO turns of thread over the hook and again release the tension on the bobbin briefly, then pull STRAIGHT DOWN with the thread on the backside of the hook, releasing the hair as you go. As the clump gets to the bottom side of the hook shank, stop further movement with the thumb of your "off" hand. Next, take two or three turns of thread over the previous wraps.

The individual who taught me these "tricks" will routinely, when teaching or demonstrating the two techniques, leave his bobbin dangling on the backside of the hook and get up and walk around to demonstrate that the hair is NOT going to move when he releases the thread pressure before making his final pull.

A very critical point to doing great deer hair work, that has not been mentioned previously, is that all thread wraps are made DIRECTLY on top of the previous turn when attaching the hair to the hook!

Learning to trim is like learning to ride a bike. It is awkward at first, but once you get the hang of it, you are off and running.

Cheers

What I would question is how are you getting the second bundle of hair on if the first is not packed back?

Are you tying a bundle on spinning it, then tying a second bundle on?

Once you get the first bundle on, spun, and pushed back, grip the fly behind the first bundle pinching down the tail and skirt tighly. Then pack back as tight as you can. This is where the brassie (clamp)type packer comes in best because you can pinch it down on the hook shank in front of your half hitches and push everything back. Typically, if you're right handed, you will be holding the back of the fly with your left hand and pushing/packing towards the back with your right hand.

Brassie = less chance of thumb wounds. :D

Aged Sage, I'll have to go back and look, but I think the hair on the spine is more suitable for wings and things than spinning. It's much finer than the side or rump hair. I use it for caddis and wulffs.
Coughlin

Packing hair, what are you trying to do and how do you do it?

The concept is to get each bundle of the hair at the hook shank to be as close together as possible. When you pack hair, what you are really trying to do is move the place where you tie it in along the hook shank back against the previous bundle as tightly as possible. Anything you put on the shank in front of the hair that ends up between the bundles degrades this process.

To do this as efficiently as possible, you want to apply pressure to the thread wrapped in front of each bundle, not to the hair itself. If you make a few, one or two but not more than three, wraps in front of the bundle, then push on the thread, you can feel the whole mess slide back along the bare hook shank. The reason some tyers add a half hitch in at this point is to keep the thread tight during this process. I've seen some guys use a drop of head cement (not CA glue) at the base of each bundle too. All of this is up to the individual tyer, use what works for you.

You absolutely need a solid blocking wrap at the back end of your spinning area to push against. A few tight wraps with a drop of cement added makes this work quite well. If your blocking wrap slips, you can't pack the hair tightly.

If you can get your thumbnail against the hook shank and use it to slide the bundle and thread wraps back, then by all means do that. If you can't, then use a tool. Just remember that the tool needs to push on the thread, not so much on the hair. If it's not sliding against the hook shank itself, you won't get a solid pack. The brassie type tools seem to make better shank contact than the single hole packers do but used properly, they all work.

If you use a tool, push straight back as far as you can, then wiggle it a bit from side to side. This help the hair meld together. If you don't use a tool After you pack by hand, brush the hair back and forth a bit with your fingers or a comb between each bundle.

You have to use enough hair but not too much. That amount varies from tyer to tyer. You'll just have to practice. A 'pencil sized' portion is the standard reference, but some of us prefer less, others much more. Too little hair, and regardless of how much you pack it, you won't have enough in each bundle to create a dense body. Too much hair, and it doesn't flair well and your thread won't get close enough to the hook shank.. all kinds of problems will ensue. Only you can figure out how much will work for you.

Cleaning the hair. Any underfur left in the hair will adversely effect how tightly it will pack and how well the hair will flair. Many great deer hair tyers are fanatical about cleaning their hair before they use it. Everyone I've seen do this well pays some amount of attention to it. Combing is the minimum I've seen from really good hair spinners. A lot of above average spinners get by with just a few tugs with their fingers. Up to you.

Practice. Your first bugs look great for the first tries. They will get worlds better after the first hundred or two. No real shortcuts. You been told pretty much all you need to know already. Practice is the only way to get really good at this.

Trimming. It's a skill. It takes practice, good hands, a vision of what you want, and the will to learn it, just like any skill.

Here's a little tip that may make your bugs come out better. You'll be amazed at how much fuller and easier to trim your bugs will be if you steam them before trimming. Try spinning several, then boiling some water in a tea kettle and holding the spun bodies over the spout as the steam escapes (us hemostats to hold the hook, steam is hot).

I know lots of guys who don't bother with it, and their stuff comes out great, but try it and see if it helps you.

Buddy

I wanted to say a word of thanks to all who have offered such well thought out and usable suggestions and honest critiques. The quality of comments and the care people on FAOL take to answer questions, especially for things like this where there is a significant learning curve, continues to amaze me.

The few times when I've had something to add to a conversation, I have tried my best to follow your lead and think through my comments to make them actionable and constructive.

I've read over the responses here several times and there are some things I can learn and will try the next time.

On combing, several years ago, one of my son's friends had a case of head lice. My wife freaked out and bought the "de lice" stuff even though my son nor any of us had any evidence of the bug.

With the kit, came a very fine toothed comb used to check for "nits".

I used that comb to brush out the underfur and it seemed to work really good as a lot of "fuzz" came out with the comb.

RE: 2 bundle and then pack, I hear you and will do it differently next time.

I may have not used enough hair per bundle. I'll try larger bundles of hair next time.

Trimming - I still think that part is a black art practiced by those in dark caves speaking ancient long forgotten languages and reading handwritten leather bound manuscripts, or perhaps those who went to a lonely crossroads at midnight on a moonless night.:D

Hopefully, I'll get to the tying bench this weekend and put to practice all the tips here. I'll post some pictures when I get them tied.

Again, everyone thank you very much for the suggestions, critique and tips.

Jeff

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jeffnles1

On combing, several years ago, one of my son's friends had a case of head lice. My wife freaked out and bought the "de lice" stuff even though my son nor any of us had any evidence of the bug.

With the kit, came a very fine toothed comb used to check for "nits".

I used that comb to brush out the underfur and it seemed to work really good as a lot of "fuzz" came out with the comb.

---

Just about everyone with kids will go through this at one time or another. Been there done that got several combs both plastic and aluminum. One trick I've seen many use it to 'mount the comb' tines up securely to the bench somehow. This will free up a hand let you drag the hair over the comb as necessary.

Quote:

---

Trimming - I still think that part is a black art practiced by those in dark caves speaking ancient long forgotten languages and reading handwritten leather bound manuscripts, or perhaps those who went to a lonely crossroads at midnight on a moonless night.:D

---

This kind of philosophy is EXACTLY why you'll fit in around here! Welcome home our wayward Brother!

Coughlin:

I stand corrected. You are right about the hair along the back. I highly recommend that those interested in working with deer hair take a look at his note, and figure, to be found at: globalflyfisher.com/staff/helm/selecting/chart.html, that shows the various areas of the hide, and what the hair from that area is best used for.

Trimming - I still think that part is a black art practiced by those in dark caves speaking ancient long forgotten languages and reading handwritten leather bound manuscripts, or perhaps those who went to a lonely crossroads at midnight on a moonless night.

Well said...well said , indeed. :D
Coughlin