Looking at buying some hackle but I need to know the difference between a cape and a saddle. Which is better for all around tying? Will necks work just as well too?
Printable View
Looking at buying some hackle but I need to know the difference between a cape and a saddle. Which is better for all around tying? Will necks work just as well too?
Hi Raiderhunter,
A neck and a cape are two different names for the same thing.
A cape has a wide range of feather sizes. Modern capes will tie fly sizes from probably about #8s down to fairly small. The smallest size that the cape will tie depends on the cape, brand, etc. I think almost all will tie down to #18 or so (I say almost because I have one that won't), and some will tie to way smaller than anyone actually needs to tie, say #26 or #28.
A saddle, on the other hand typically will tie 2 to 3 sizes or so. Saddles have a large number of feathers, but a fairly narrow range of sizes.
Saddles have VERY long hackle feathers. I haven't bought any hackle in couple of years, having bought my hackle a few years ago, but I have saddles with feathers that are probably quite long. I would have to dig one out, but I am sure that they are at least 9 inches long to maybe 12 inches or so. I am sure that one of my better saddle feathers might hackle half a dozen flies. Capes have shorter feather, but the feathers on good capes are still plenty long to tie at least at least one fly, and many have feathers long enough to tie more than one. (In the old days it would take two or more feathers to be able to hackle one fly.)
Capes have much stronger stems than do saddles. Saddles have fairly small diameter stems. This makes them easier to wind, but at the same time makes them easier for trouts teeth to cut. There is no free lunch.
Over the years, the holy grail of hackle breeders has been to get smaller size feathers on saddle hackle and on capes. In the 70s a cape that would tie #16s was a good one, and a lot would not, according to the books I have read on tying. When I started tying, typical saddles would tie down to MAYBE #12, and many would not tie flies that small. Whiting now has saddles, midge saddles, that will tie down to #22 normally. Many suppliers have saddles that will tie down to #12, and some smaller.
For most drys that we tie in our country for New Mexico, most of the flies I tie are in the #12 to #16 range. However, #18s to #22s are pretty common too. (I tie very few of the smaller flies.) This time of year, however, smaller blue winged olives might be the only game in town part of the time.
Hackle is one of the great improvements in tying. The hackle that an ordinary tier has is far better than anyone had in the 70s. No amount of money could buy a cape that is available to all of us now even in the lower price range. They simply did not exist. The capes now have much less web, have higher barb count, have stiffer hackle, and are simply drastically better in every way.
The one exception, is that many of the breeders have esentially bred out the tailing feathers that used to be on the sides of the capes. (Long, straight, very stiff barbs on a limited number of feathers that were used for tailings on traditional Catskill dry flies.)
At any rate, if you want to tie all sizes of flies with the same hackle, you want capes.
Also, although you probably know this already, you want dry fly capes. Hen capes are softer and webbier, and not as good for drys.
The strange thing that has happened in the last few years is that the genetic hackle from suppliers like Whiting, Metz, and others has been developed to the point that the hen hackle can actually be used for dry flies. The hen hackle capes, in some cases, is better for dry flies than the dry fly (rooster) capes were 30 years ago. Some commercial tiers have advised on various bulletin boards that they actually use these hen cape to hackle dry flies.
Regards,
Gandolf
Raidhunter,
Go to your local library and look for books on Fly Tying. Hundreds have been written on the subject, and most libraries have more than the big book stores. There are many books out there, that were written for the beginner that have a ton of basic information. Look for authers like Peter Gathercole, Dick Talleur, Skip Morris. There are alot of great books, by alot of great authors and big names in the fly fishing world, however many are for the experienced/advanced angler/tyer and assume you already know the basics. If you need this information, look for the beginner books and videos to get you started.
Just my 2 cents.
For someone just starting out, you might want to consider Grade 3 capes (or equivalent) for about 25-30 bucks. Gandolf gave you a great summary of the pluses and minuses of capes vs saddles.
Grade 3 Capes will typically tie a range of sizes from 10-18 in dries. In terms of bang for the buck these are hard to beat if you want to cover a lot of bases as far as sizes and will typically tie 350+ flies. More expensive grades of capes will typically tie more flies (longer and more feathers), but you are really paying a premium for the ability to tie smaller sizes 20 and below.
You might consider some of FAOL's sponsors
Denny at Conranch www.conranch.com sells grade 3 capes for 29 bucks
Ron at Hook and Hackle sells Whiting Hebert Miner Pro grade Capes for 25 bucks (typically 30 bucks elsewhere) http://shop4.mailordercentral.com/ho...s.asp?dept=145
You could contact either, and tell them what you are tying and they'll be happy to recommend stuff to get that would be right for the size range and color for the stuff you want to tie.
In general though, a good start would be a grizzly and a brown, followed at some point by a medium dun and light ginger (or cream). By using these colors alone, or blending 2 colors you can match a pretty wide range of hatches.
Saddles are a pleasure to use, and you might decide to move to them at some point as you pick over your capes in certain size ranges, provided you get saddles strong in the sizes you are looking to replace.
mark
Here's a few from Cabelas and Bass Pro Shop
Cabelas
Cabelas: Dry Fly Necks $24.99, Saddles $21.99
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...=cat20542&rid=
Jay Fair Saddles $19.95
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...542&hasJS=true
Metz Dry Fly Hackle Multi-Packs $12.99 to $39.99
(Good qaulity partial skins in several colors)
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...=cat20542&rid=
Fly Tying Variety pack $14.99 (Great value to learn and practice on)
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...542&hasJS=true
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Bass Pro
White River Fly Shop Dry Hackle Mini Packs Sizes 12/14 and sizes 14/16 $5.99
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/st...004000_175-4-8
White River Fly Shop Feather Variety Packs Natural or dyed $11.99
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/st...004000_175-4-8
The Dry Fly Hackle Combo Patch $17.99
http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/st...004000_175-4-8
Hi,
Lots of excellent info here. My only add would be if you decide to go the saddle route, to communicate with your supplier your preference for sizes. The saddles are the best value for tons of flies, but with limited range of sizes (2-3). Talk to the flyshop or the other choices listed above and ask them to choose a saddle that fits the flies you want to tie.
For example, if you want to tie mostly 16s and 18s, then get a saddle that is optimized for these sizes. Shopping in person helps, but smaller online suppliers with good customer service also works.
I wrote an article on my blog about this, but the info in this thread covers it all.
Good luck!
John
When you get a chance listen to this audio program by Dr. Whiting himself. Listen to it early on in your fly tying career and it will answer many questions. It's also a great piece for experienced tiers as well: http://www.askaboutflyfishing.com/sp...mas/thomas.cfm
You can download it on your IPod or just listen to it on your computer. Answers questions you don't even know that you have right now. :p
The idea of this audio file reminds of seeing books-on-tape version of a Dick Talleur fly tying video at the library. I just cant imagine why some would even WANT to to just listen to an instructional video that is meant to SHOW you somthing. :confused:
There is a lot of knowledge that Dr Whiting has. From the man that pioneered genetical hackle own mouth. He gives insight on the different products. Yes, I have gone, when just starting out to the local fly shop (when they weren't busy) and just asked the guy to show me the difference between a $90 cape and a $25 cape. They pulled them both out of the package and I could see some of the differences with my own eyes. I still liked the Whiting audio piece better. It's more rounded in it's info. The bottom line in this age of info overload, we all pick what interests us to learn. If it doesn't trip your trigger, no problem with me. Someone else that wants to learn just might find it exactly what they need. Besdies, I downloaded it to my IPod and could listen to it on my lunch breaks instead of listening to the normal chatter at work. Was just the escape that I needed to pretend that I was tying or on the water instead of working. It gave my mind a rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass_Bug
Rick
Sorry Clay, I didnt mean to imply that what you were talking about wasnt good information. As rare as audio only clips are in fly fltying, I was just thinking of that audio tape of Talleurs video and got off track.
No problem man, it was a reasonable question about audio presentations. That whole link, Ask About Fly Fishing, is a great resource. I think that I have 12 or 13 programs on my Ipod. Love Kelly Galloup's discussion on Trophy Trout and many of the other presentations. In this day of the instant access to YouTube, audio only presentations are almost a step backwards in the information age but still very worth while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass_Bug
Rick