THE ULTIMATE FISHING EXPERIENCE - FISHING DEPUY SPRING CREEK
Neil takes Dee fishing the DePuy Spring Creek.
This is a nice tour of this months drawing prize as well as highlighting the advantages of fishing premium private waters. It must be rough doing some of the research needed for an FAOL article.
Neil !!
Love that photo. 'ya have to watch out for Deanna! ... it seems that on every cast, she takes a tiny step forward!!Quote:
The ?Boss Herself? trying hard to keep from falling in and cast at the same time ...
Chris! That is so funny! You picked up on the same sentence I did!!
Yah ... the research is tough, but somebody's got to do it!!:rolleyes:
I pity the trout that shows it's nose to Dee/ When a trout rises she is like a bird dog on point. All business until that trout is caught and released. Love watching that woman fish.
Uh, Trav, the next time you need to do some more "research" I'd be glad to offer my services. I know how tough it is to "research" some of those places.
Betty ...The problem is ... according to Deanna herself, ... is that when she fishes in the surf, ... she takes a small step forward with each cast ... concentrating on the fish.
Before she knows it, ... she's in DEEP WATER!!! :shock:
Neil's column this week has got me thinking about whether I would be willing to pay to fish at a private location. I know that there are obviously a large number of people who either pay to fish on private waters or are members of a club which allow you to fish private waters (paying membership dues).
I cannot picture myself EVER paying a large chunk of money to someone to fish on private water. Anything that would cost me more than my annual fishing license would be considered a large chunk of money by me ;) I just can't imagine any piece of water or fish that would warrant that action. I tried looking at DePuy's Spring Creek site for rates but couldn't find it, but I'm sure it isn't cheap.
**I am wondering, for those of you out there who do regularly (or even semi-regularly) pay to fish on private water-why? What is the drive behind it? If you were trying to sell this idea or a specific pay-to-play location, what would you say? How much do you pay? Is there a limit/cap to what you would pay?
**For those of you who do not pay to fish private water-why? What is the drive behind your decision?
Note: I certainly have nothing against those who offer pay-to-fish options or those who pay to fish. (In fact, if I owned prime fishing property somewhere I'd likely want to charge people to fish it too). I'm also not trying to spark anything negative, I just genuinely want to know why folks pay to fish!
Also, I am not talking about paying for a guided trip somewhere on public water, though I understand many private waters are guide-only. I'm also not talking about paying to go to some exotic location to fish, like Chile--If I could afford that it would be a no-brainer!
First of all, I spend plenty on gear, fuel, tying materials, etc. and really, with the fishing opportunities present in PA's public water, I can see neither a need nor a justification for spending even more to fish someone's private fishpen.Quote:
**For those of you who do not pay to fish private water-why? What is the drive behind your decision?
Second...there's just something that rankles me about charging to fish. When I think of fishing, one of the things I like the best about it is that, once you've got your equipment, it's shockingly cheap, compared to most other hobbies, if cheap is what you're looking for (okay, fly fishing is NOT cheap), still, if you get a kid a good starter setup for a birthday or christmas, and he has access to water, he can fish from thaw to freeze, quite literally, for pennies a day. While most pay-to-play operations cater to other, more wealthy, clientele (which is a whole new can of worms I wont get into), it just seems to be..."not in the spirit of the sport".
Thirdly, I believe that in many situations, the success of one small for-profit fishery leads to more of the same, which slowly but surely cuts down public access to good fishing, especially in areas with smaller streams and local laws that prevent all access to privately owned water.
Now, I dont mean to say that any pay-fishery is BAD, or that the people that fish there are BAD, and in fact, I think that alot of good could come of them. Its just that I, personally, am not a fan. Just one man's opinion...but you asked for it. :P
I am a member of a local Sportsman Club. We have a small pond that is stocked and fishing is restricted to club members only. If someone is caught fishing there without a membership we invite to fish for free for the day. However, if they want to return we require them to buy a $25 dollar annual membership.
Buying a membership entitles them to a lot more than fishing too. We have an excellent rifle range, pistol range, archery range and clay bird shooting range. We have a very nice modern club building with an indoor .22cal rifle range. We have parties, pot luck dinners, seminars, instructional sessions and so on for all to attend. We work with the Game Commission and Fish Commission to teach safe, ethical hunting and fishing practices to all but particularly to the youngsters. No child is ever turned away and we tend to help our lower income folks become members. Many of us, myself included, share my firearms and fishing gear while at the club with folks that don't "have one of those".
Not all pay fishing is bad. Some of it promotes fellowship and allows underprivileged folks a chance to do something they would not normally be able to do. Without the funds form a simple $25 dollar membership these things would not happen.
Oh, I will also mention that all hunting and fishing regulations must be followed. Valid licenses are required for folks of licensing age that wish to hunt or fish on the premises.
I fish both public and private waters.
Thanks for the post, Muskrat, I guess I should have qualified my post by specifying my aversion to the fishing "resort" businesses that close off sections of water and charge to fish for their own monetary gain, not the local clubs that have their fishing areas as an accessory to other facilities, that often have many grass-roots level conservation efforts going, and who often do things to benefit the community at large. In my area, there are several sportsmens clubs that stock public water, put on demos, teach hunter-trapper safety education courses, and stream cleanups. In no way did I intend my comments to be directed toward them. Though I dont belong to any such clubs myself, many of them get my thumbs up. :)
I have nothing against any pay-to-play fishing options regardless of their rates or membership.
I have been invited as a guest to several, but haven't yet taken anyone up on the offer.
I once belonged to a shooting club that had a pond on their property, but that was years ago although I am planning on joining another soon.
The biggest reason paying or clubs don't interest me is: I am a bit of a wild trout snob and where I live there are TONS of open public streams with wild trout. I have a really weird perspective on stocked fish and the thought of chasing huge stocked fish on private water really doesn't hold much interest to me.
I would however, gladly pay to fish a wild trout stream or section that was otherwise unavailable to me except as a paying guest or member provided it didn't cost me more than a round of golf on a decent public course. ;)
I don't do so regularly but Callaway Garden has several venues where you can fish for a fee. There is a large lake (90 acres approx) where you can rent a boat for <$75 per day. Two guys can rent a 14 ft. jon boat with padded seats, trolling motor and battery and fish half a day for about $60. The attraction is the average bream I have personally caught are about a pound. Pound bream on a 3wt are a lot of fun. There is also the possibility of very large bass and probably catfish in the lake. Several year back I dropped a bream killer on a dropper by a log and just got freight trained. It happened so quick that 4 lbs. leader material broke without the fish being aware it was there.
I lost about half of my income stream early this year so I won't be going back for a little while. But I do look forward to the next time.
Years ago , when I was in the Army in Germany, virtually all fishing rights were privately held and if you wanted to fish , you bought a day card or joined the club that owned the rights where you wanted to fish. I didn't like the system all that much, but I adjusted while I was there and was glad to get back to the good old USA when my time was done.
I use to run the pay-to-fish ponds at the state trout hatchery
Plenty of oversized fish and except for the first few days of the season, they weren't pushovers either. 2 bucks for 3 hours
We had a lot of regulars including some seniors who would have had trouble fishing in a more traditional setting
Never my cuppa tea though.
I've fished other private waters and never cared for that either ... it just doesn't seem right.
I can't be too critical. When I was little, 6 or 7, my father and grandfather belonged to an 'angling club'. I caught my first trout on a private stream
i have payed to fish armstrongs spring creek in montana and would pay to fish it again. i wouldnt pay to fish every day but i would if it was a vacation situation as it was when i fished it years ago.
there is something about fishing a few miles of spring creek with only 6-8 other people fishing it.
you didnt find this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild One
http://www.depuyspringcreek.com/calendar2003.html
Something else to think on...how is a "pay-to-play" fishery any different from a scaled down version of "buy your license to fish in this state"? I mean, it SEEMS different, because the license is just a given, but in reality, you're paying to be a member of a special "club" of citizens (legal, licensed anglers), who alone have permission to fish on the streams of a central entity (the state) because they paid a membership/licensing fee.
Just another thought to help muddy the waters and increase perspective. :)
For the record: I have no problems with paying the price I do for my license, and feel it's well worth it...and I still dont like the idea of pay-to-play. Contradictory? Probably. But thats my story and I'm stickin' to it. ;)
Honestly, though, I think its just when the central "entity" is only in pursuit of the almighty dollar that it uncenters my chi.
Not so sure I would pay to fish though in times it might be the way to go.
While researching FF in Colorado for a trip a couple years back, I realized that a guide might be best as it seemed that well known places would be swamped and I only occasionally fish for trout anyhow.
Then on arrival spoke to a couple guides only to be further lead down the pay more to fish path....2-3 of the shops HIGHLY reccomended booking time on the private ranches around...adding another 100 or so bucks per fisherman to the equation.
That said, yes, I wish in that case I could have afforded booking a trip but a 300-400 trip is not in my budget at this time, may never be but I can imagine it to be a good thing...far from home and on a time constraint while wanting to catch the finest fish the area offers.
This is my last year living in bozeman, i graduate this next spring!Quote:
Originally Posted by Normand
I am thinking hard about buying a winter pass at depuy's.
I paid Milesnick's the $5 once or twice when I fished, to help them with weeds and roads and such. Not once they turned it into a real pay-to-play. And there used to be a river access in WA where you had to put a dollar in the box to get to the river.
Beyond that, I am a firm believer in public waters and public fish. I would not spend another $100 or $400 just to have a chance to catch someone's home grown pig.
To me, bragging about how good the fishing is on a piece of water you paid to get into is sort of like bragging about your prowess with women when you hired a lady of negotiable affection for the evening. If you can succeed where anyone else also has a shot at it, now that is more my idea of skill.
On the other hand, the more people pay to fish the high dollar water, the more fish there are for me on the rest of it.
I will try and be as nice as I can be in stating my opinions on this subject..
I respect private property and will ask the land owner for permission to gain access to a stream to fish. Being a land owner gives you the right to restrict others from trespassing on your property, but, when a group of either fishermen or hunters go to that land owner and offer him/her a sizeable sum of money per year to lease their property so they can have it for themselves and keep other people off is wrong. Not sure that people understand that if I injure myself while on their property that they gave me permission to use, I am on my own and it is my "tuff luck", but, if I had to pay them to use their property, they could possibly become libel for any injury to myself or damage to my vehicle. I am sorry but to pay someone to fish a part of a river that the previous owner use to allow others to fish does not sit well with me but that is just my opinion and nothing more. It just seems that everyday we keep losing more freedoms to our government and more and more property becomes "No Trespassing" when "big money" has decided to purchase it for a tax write off.
Paying another person for a priviledge that use to be free just does not sit well with me. I pay for a fishing lic. here in Tennessee and I should be able to fish all of the public rivers in Tennessee. I do not think it is right for some to pool their money and lease up property so they can keep it for themselves. It just does not seem right, but, for us "middle class and lower people", it is something that I guess we may as well get use to.It boils down to, "Money talks and bulls**t walks" and I do a lot of walking.
Please understand that the above is just my opinions and none of it was meant to upset anyone...
To state it bluntly, when hell freezes over. The only things associated with fishing I will pay for are the equipment and license fees . Nothing else. I usually do buy the full year non resident license in appreciation to whatever state I'm fishing in. My way of thanking that state for providing me with the opportunity ( and in some cases, cheaper than the daily fee :) )
Mark
Hey, take a look at my thread on the Fishing Reports site under Dad and the Kid and you'll see that there are still places as good as any of those pay-for-play spring creeks where all it takes is a state license, a few gallons of gas, and some time. I'll not jump into this any more than to say that I discovered this place quite by accident. It is right along the one and only road in and out of this area and very few ever fish it. Many who do are quickly discouraged, but those of us who have taken the time to crack the code find this to be one of the most outstanding spring creek waters we've ever visited and that includes many of the more famous ones up your way in Montana.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSkibum
Just my 2-cents...
Kelly.
Seems to me the appeal of such places is the opportunity to catch more trouts or large trouts, often with the help of a pro who probably is on a first name basis with every fishy in the fishery. If people want to pay for that opportunity rather than work for it, that is their business. As far as "solitude" goes - I shudder at the thought of there being a club house, reservations, a parking area, and 16 rods on a three mile stretch of water. Who needs civilization and crowds like that ??
And if people own property that they can turn into a profitable business, why not ?? Other people sell Toyotas, others sell cosmetics, others sell fruits and veggies, etc. etc. etc. As long as the property owner stays within the law on limiting or trying to limit the people who are on his property, that is his right. Interestingly, I do believe that DePuy, Armstrong and Nelson all drain into the Yellowstone, and can be swum, waded, rowed or whatever AND FISHED by anyone who takes the time and spends the energy to stay with the high water mark as is legal under Montana law. Some places, unfortunately, the abutting private property owner can limit access to public water. Not something I am in favor of, but it is what it is.
Actually, I am much in favor of as many people as have two nickels to rub together to go to the pay to play fisheries. Means even fewer of them trying to get on the water that I like to fish, with no one telling me where to fish or how to do it, with no one getting in my way as I wander around beautiful places rubbing shoulders with the wildlife and not other fishermen and women, with no one else trying to catch those beautiful little wild, and often native, fishies that probably have never seen a fly before and never will again. Might even catch a bigger one now and then, not that that counts for much.
John
One of the places I fish regularly is a little pay lake. $5 for a days fishing. I don't mind it. I usually only see a few people fishing at any time. It's part of a trailer park/RV park. This is how they make their living.
I can usually catch fish, but not always. It's clean, well maintained, and lots of room for a back-cast.
Kirk
To each his own, but understand that if the landowners that own the land surrounding it did not offer a 'pay for fishing' opportunity these streams would likely be locked up. Spring creeks are not common pieces of water, they are extremely productive - both with insects and trout - and the demand on them is high. All of the landowners that own these streams here in my area have opened them to fee fishing for many years. Trust me when I say that they all regularly get requests from 'high rollers' to buy up the rights and reserve the water for themselves and a small cadre of high rolling friends. To their credit they have not done so.
I don't believe that any of these ranchers are getting rich at offering anglers a chance to fish their water for a fee. Fee fishing may not be your 'thing' but it's a very acceptable alternative for many people. The fishing on these creeks is exceptional, the fish are wild, the hatches are great, and the experience is unbeatable. It may not be your cup of tea, but I, for one, am glad that these streams are still available to the general public, even if it is for a fee. I have been associated with DePuy's Spring Creek for many years, and I am very proud of that association.
Neil -
I think we are just coming at it from opposite directions. That is good. I thought about adding that some folks who run the pay to play fisheries need to do it to survive, to have some more security in their lives than if they were simply trying to get by ranching and farming. Fishing isn't the only "extra" some of those folks have to depend on - ranch hand and cattle drive experiences, survival schools, horse packing into remote places, etc.
Maybe you can clarify one thing ?? I have read elsewhere that access on these creeks from the Yellowstone is difficult, but legal. Your comments seem to suggest otherwise ?? If it is legal, even the rich who would own the land and try to limit access wouldn't be able to do so, legally.
We have a situation in the Central Mountains here in Idaho where an incredibly rich spring creek is owned by an incredibly rich and selfish someone on the list of the wealthiest people in America. The local interpretation is that it is legal to cross his fence as long as you are in the water - but it is not worth the hassle, trying to fight this guy's wealth.
One of the more humorous situations in the same area, is that a bunch of guys got together a club and bought some land on the riverfront. They seem to think that they bought the rights to the water also. Not so. Only the land to high water mark. Then the BLM cuts a road to a point right across from their "clubhouse" and builds a trail down to the river. They pay something like a couple grand a year to fish the water I fish for the cost of a ten minute walk upstream in a pretty setting.
John
The only reason I won't pay to fish a stream.........Donnie Beaver. He tried to fence out sections of my homestream the Little Juniata in Pa. for his spring ridge club. :-x
;) zoomed right past it. Saw the calendars and the seasons, but skimmed right past the prices...they do kind of seem to blend in a little bit though right :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Normand
Interesting thoughts here-on both sides of the question.
I must say that I really like this little analogy:I also have to say that if I was a high-roller I know that I would probably be more open to the idea; however, given my current economic situation I don't consider this worth my money and probably never will. I say this because I wouldn't have a problem paying $10 per day to fish a quality trout fishery if there was one to be found in close proximity to me. For me it honestly isn't a question of ethics or values but one of COST versus VALUE.Quote:
To me, bragging about how good the fishing is on a piece of water you paid to get into is sort of like bragging about your prowess with women when you hired a lady of negotiable affection for the evening. If you can succeed where anyone else also has a shot at it, now that is more my idea of skill
Hey, if paying for the privilege of using a private reserve is good enough for our past vice president of the USA. It's good enough for me (or would be if I could afford it).
After all someone paid for Cheney to go hunting on a private reserve for the privilege of shooting a bird they released right in front of him... um... wait...
He missed THE BIRD come to think of it... Bad example
Not sure I have a problem with it, I've paid to put relatives up in a Bed and Breakfast close to my home before because it was convenient. If you have the money, and would prefer the solitude, why not.
I know that when I go on vacation I prefer smaller out of the way resorts because I don't like the crowds. I'll pay more for that too. So this isn't much different.
As long as public waters and sufficient fish are available.. Great.
And since this place is catch and release, it's a very fertile spawning area that fish will be more likely to reproduce in, and provide more fish for the public areas where you can keep em. Sounds like a win win to me.
Careful, Ron. You keep talking like a fly-flinger, we are gonna start to wonder about all of these professions of worm-drowner!:p
At this point in my fishing journey, my moving water skills are so poor that it would not be worth my efforts to spend big money to fish a prime stream like DePuy's. I couldn't do IT justice.
Kirk (the still water guy)