Coq-De-Leon

There has been a few posts recently regarding flies tied with CDL (Coq-De-Leon).

I was interested to read how people have grasped onto the Whiting farms CDL capes and saddles.

I am lucky enough to have been given a few feathers in several colours of the genuine CDL from Spain. I also have a few Whiting CDL capes. I just wanted to point out that the genuine feathers are plucked from live birds in Spain. (Some controversy over the cruelty of this, and I am probably a critic, although the birds do not appear to suffer much.) As far as I know all their feathers are harvested in this way and are never sold as capes. Whitings are the necks of birds. The genuine feathers look nothing like the whiting's except vaguely in colour. The genuine feathers are really large and stiff. The ones I have cannot be wound because the stems are so stiff. They are stripped and used as tails and very occasionally wings.

Maybe Whitings can call their necks Coq-De-Leon because they are from that particular strain of cockerel, but the feathers are in no way similar.

What do others think about this???

Mick,

I have some excellent CdL feathers from spain and as tailing material it takes some beating, as you say. These feathers are harvested from mature birds, plucked from the area between the bird's shoulders. The barbs are fine, long and glassy.

Sometimes the feathers are used as a collar, or as a downwing on a caddis pattern. For a collar the barbs are too long, when wound in a traditional manner, and either have to be trimmed down to size (works fine for fishing, does not look very pleasing to (my) eye), or they have to be attached in alternative ways, by first pulling the barbs clear from the stem and tied in as a bunch.

The Whiting CdL products are a totally different kettle of fish. The birds are no older than a year, there is no plucking of specific feathers off a live mature bird. The neck provides wonderful feathers for hackling wingless wets, and I think are an excellent product in their own right.

The Whiting Tailing Packs are the same feathers as sold out of Spain, and while decent are not in the same quality as the Spanish feathers. They are, though, much less expensive. Their availability also more widespread.

The choice is the tier's.

This tier uses both Spanish feathers, and the Whiting offerings.

Cheers,
Hans W

Like Hans, I use both, the Whiting and Spanish feathers. I must admit to having a much smaller supply of the Spanish feathers due to cost.

REE

I spoke to the gentleman in Spain a couple of years ago about the Coq-DeLeon, and he sent us a small selection of the features. The colors where amazing along with the natural pattern in the features. He claimed being raising 'free range' the feathers where the result of the unusual local dirt. Who knew?

Like Ron & Hans, I have both Spanish and Whiting CDL tailing feathers and while the Spanish feathers are marginally nicer (for tails), they are not worth the price. The Whiting tailing packs are a superior product price wise and considering that they also have a host of other useful CDL products, I see no reason to ever invest in the "real McCoy" again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LadyFisher

I spoke to the gentleman in Spain a couple of years ago about the Coq-DeLeon, and he sent us a small selection of the features. The colors where amazing along with the natural pattern in the features. He claimed being raising 'free range' the feathers where the result of the unusual local dirt. Who knew?

---

Dirt????

I can assure you that there is no dirt on those feathers. They are mainly used to tie wet flies and for this reason they are so appreciated. They are unique and so the patterns on which they are used.

If you are interested in some information about CDL feathers (types, quality, patterns, step by step, etc.), you can have a look at the following link http://webs.ono.com/moscaahogada2/pluma.html . It is in Spanish but you will find a lot of very interesting pictures, and for those who can read Spanish, a lot of information.

Hope to be of any help.

Andr?s T.

Three pics from a good friend

I also have both feathers, but the reason for my post was really to ask the question "how can Whitings call their product Coq-De-Leon?" It is not the same product at all.

Whitings tailing packs like you say are much cheaper but there is no comparison in the texture and feel of the feathers.

Andres,

I believe what LadyFisher was saying was, the wonderful color in the Spanish feathers is a result of the birds living in and eating some of the local dirt. The color differences are remarkable.

REE

I have the whiting tailing packs and find them to be a great tailing material. But now I am curious about the 'real' CDL from Spain. Where are you folks getting the 'real' deal? Is there a source in the US?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ron Eagle Elk

Andres,

I believe what LadyFisher was saying was, the wonderful color in the Spanish feathers is a result of the birds living in and eating some of the local dirt. The color differences are remarkable.

REE

---

Ron I think more about the Spanish gentelman?s joke. Of course local dirt could have its influence in meat taste and in egg colour but I have many doubts about its influence in "la penca" (little spots on feathers), or in feathers in general.

If you have looked the link I sent, You would have observed that there are a lot of different colors on those feathers: white, red, black, yellow, browns, etc. All coqs live in the same area eating the same things, so if food was responsible of feather appearance, all would have the same type of feather. Anyway, a "gentelman?s" joke.

Coqs de Le?n are the result of a natural evolution, so the explanation should be in genetic factors. On the other hand there is a myth about the particular environment where they live that makes impossible to raise them in another place. This seems to be real as many people have tried to raise them in different places in Spain but with negative results. They even took adult coqs to realise after some seasons that feather qualities as color or shyness have been lost. Up to what I know, nobody knows the reason for that.

Some eggs have been send to USA, and genetic work on them could achieve positive results in the future, but I am afraid they will also have to reproduce the environment where coqs live.

Apart from feathers being used to tie wet flies they are also used to tie wings on may flies or wings on caddys. (as I said in a previous thread, I will not go fishing without my caddys box full of coq de Leon patterns ).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mickporter

I also have both feathers, but the reason for my post was really to ask the question "how can Whitings call their product Coq-De-Leon?" It is not the same product at all.

---

Does not Coq de Leon denote the breed, and Coq de Leon feathers plumage taken from said breed?

Cheers,
Hans W

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hans Weilenmann

Does not Coq de Leon denote the breed, and Coq de Leon feathers plumage taken from said breed?

Cheers,
Hans W

---

Not sure if its the breed or the location which has developed the colours due to selective breeding there. This is a good article. http://www.flyfishinghistory.com/coq_de_leon.htm

Maybe Whitings have obtained some birds from that region I don't know.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mickporter

Maybe Whitings have obtained some birds from that region I don't know.

---

Mick,

Quoting from the Whiting Farms web site:

"Whiting Farms is the only breeder of Coq de Leon with original bird stock from the Leon district of Spain."

Cheers,
Hans W

Thank you Micke for the article. Alejandro is a notorius and a very well documented fly fisherman.

As far as I know, Whiting had CDL eggs. The problem is to obtain the same quallity of feather, the same problem they have in other regions in Spain.

Andres T.

I really think Whiting is off base on this one....misleading though I suppose technically correct....it causes:confused::confused::confused::confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ducksterman

I really think Whiting is off base on this one....misleading though I suppose technically correct....it causes:confused::confused::confused::confused:

---

Yes I think so too. What they are supplying is not anywhere near the same product as a genuine CDL feather from Leon.

March Brown Wingless Wet (Image): http://www.danica.com/flytier/hweile...l_squirrel.jpg
By Hans Weilenmann

Doug

I think it is misleading to say that Whiting is being misleading.

I first heard about CDL from one of the best tiers in our region - Bruce Staples - and he was referring to the Whiting CDL tailing packs and capes.

If you haven't heard of Bruce, check out the link. Note the comments about the author.

http://www.amatobooks.com/mm5/mercha...Category_Code=

There may be some history to the Spanish version of CDL that is distinctly different than the American version, but that doesn't make Whiting's claims misleading. I for one am glad that I found the Whiting version. I can afford it. It has made for some very interesting and productive flies.

If Whiting called their version something else, I'd refer to it by that name. But so what, except for maybe the reaction of some purists to making a good feather available to a wider market ??

John

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnScott

I think it is misleading to say that Whiting is being misleading.

I first heard about CDL from one of the best tiers in our region - Bruce Staples - and he was referring to the Whiting CDL tailing packs and capes.

If you haven't heard of Bruce, check out the link. Note the comments about the author.

http://www.amatobooks.com/mm5/mercha...Category_Code=

There may be some history to the Spanish version of CDL that is distinctly different than the American version, but that doesn't make Whiting's claims misleading. I for one am glad that I found the Whiting version. I can afford it. It has made for some very interesting and productive flies.

If Whiting called their version something else, I'd refer to it by that name. But so what, except for maybe the reaction of some purists to making a good feather available to a wider market ??

John

---

Yes I take your point John except for the bit about making a good feather available to a wider market. I have no doubts whatsoever that Whitings feathers are great. I have a few CDL capes and saddles myself. But its a different feather completely, and I think its this which is certainly confusing me.....

I guess I'm just stupid... Not being an elitist I had no idea what those feathers were and when FlyGoddess started a thread about them....I was confused...as I researched them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mickporter

Yes I take your point John except for the bit about making a good feather available to a wider market. I have no doubts whatsoever that Whitings feathers are great. I have a few CDL capes and saddles myself. But its a different feather completely, and I think its this which is certainly confusing me.....

---

Mick -

I certainly don't mean to be argumentative - and Duck, I hope you weren't offended by my earlier comments.

There may be a big difference between a Corvette and a Corvair, but they are both still Chevrolets.

If it weren't for Whiting's version of CDL ( can anyone offer proof to dispute their claim that they developed their line from "original bird stock from the Leon district of Spain" - quoting from the Whiting Farms website ), there would be precious few people tying with feathers from that breed.

Perhaps instead of debating the difference in feathers from the same breed, we could be celebrating the possibilities presented by Whiting.

John

John,

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one...and I guess I'm belaboring the subject...but...[there's always a "but";)....]

For those of us less versed in the subject IMHO ...though as I said they are technically correct....it would have been better and more informative for Whiting to label their product somehow indicating it's not the particular feather....not sure but I suspect in usual parlance when most folks refer to CDL feathers they are referring to the Spain ones...I know when I went to their web site at first looking for CDL I expected to see those feathers.