Non-Trout Tactics

Those of you who have read Joe Humphrey's Trout Tactics (link to Amazon) will have an idea what I'm getting at here. I would say the book is recommended reading for anyone who fly fishes for trout, and certainly required reading if you fly fish for trout on small streams and spring creeks. Joe Humphrey's is a well-known central PA flyfisherman and between the book and classes at Penn State, I developed a toolset for solving fly fishing problems on trout streams. Almost any day I went out, I could get some rises from fish. Didn't catch fish every day, but things weren't terrible. When I went to fish the Missouri River in Montana and the Bow River in Canada, I could adapt the same toolset and catch trout.

Now I have moved to Illinois (some of you might remember my earlier thread about that), and I am completely lost. I have no toolset. I have gone out fly-fishing once in early september on the Fox River and once a week ago on the Kishwaukee. The fishing situations and the fish themselves are different; clearly these are not limestone streams holding trout. The only things I have caught are tree branches, moss, and knee-deep mud.

So my question for people who fish the slower-moving rivers in the midwest, what's in your mental toolset? What water temperature ranges do use? How did you develop it? Do you have links or books to recommend, or suggestions you can give me?

I won't offer any earth-shattering advice here. There are quite a few books on bass and bluegill fly fishing, and all have something to offer. Having grown up in an area with only warmwater and little fly fishing going on, I learned how from magazines and books, most of which were about moving water and trout. I applied trout tactics to my slow southern waters and caught plenty of fish. I'd tend to say that fish in moving water behave similarly, regardless of species--the same goes for stillwater. In fact, when in later years I tried to apply tactics and tackle specifically designed for warmwater, I had less success and enjoyment. A few things, though--warmwater fish are rarely tippet shy and often live in a more snag-prone environment, so don't worry about whether you need 5x or 6x--you usually need 2x or 3x for 'gills and heavier for bass. Warmwater fish will take small flies, as small as the most finicky trout. The problem is that they'll take them into their often small mouths so deep you'd have to kill the fish to retrieve them. I hardly ever need to go below a fat #12 or 14, and often a #10 or above is better. Traditional "trout" patterns will often do as well or better than fancy warmwater ties. That being said, the most popular warmwater patterns are probably a #8-10 sponge rubber spider with rubber "hackle" and a similarly sized wet fly consisting of chartreuse chenille and more of that "hackle" (on a lark, I tried these "flies" on Appalachian brookies, and they were ravenously supportive of my experiment!) You could (and many do) go after warmwater fish with 000-3wt tackle. You may find it easier going to stay with 4-8wt tackle, depending on the water and flies. In open water, there isn't a bass or panfish that couldn't be landed quickly on ultralight tackle. Open water is not usually abundant, though, and even an 8oz bluegill can wrap your 8wt around a submerged tree so well you'll never get it out. Kind of up to you and what you find more fun. In general, I'd say warmwater fishing can be as "technical" as you want to make it, or as blissfully simple--have it your way!
-CC

If your in IL and fishing this week or last, chances are "the season" is done. Unless you are certain Trout are in those rivers, try again about May or so.

Most warm water fish are pretty well holed up when water temps start dipping into the 50's...that said, many catch year round but that takes the "knowing where they lay".

Welcome to Illinois, now head (in season) to Wisconsin or Michigan.

As already pointed out, this isn't exactly the season for warmwater fish. Bass are sunfish after all.

To be honest, I've never had much success on the Kish. Went twice, got exactly 2 fish, broke one rod. I'm not convinced there are a whole lot of fish in there.

Fly angler's never do particularly well on the Fox. The water is very fast making it very difficult to get the fly down. Think about a sinking line, if you want to keep trying.

The Kankakee to the south is more flyfishing friendly.

The fishing for steelhead in and around Milwaukee and Sheboygan should be picking up I'd think. Salmon run should be over. This isn't my thing, but you could check out thesteelheadsite.com for reports.

The Early trout season starts in Wisconsin on the first Saturday in March, I think (I usually head up in April). There are plenty of guide books available. Just remember your small streams are very large compared to Wisconsin.

Iowa never closes. Not sure what the deal is with Michigan. I head west, not east - but with my son going to Michigan State next year, maybe that'll change.

Here at home, think the Chicago Park Districts and the Forest Preserves for 'gills, crappie and an occasional LM bass or carp. Some of the FP's also have pike and a few allow canoeing.

I used to live in northern Illinois. I worked across the street from the Fox River in St. Charles, and lived across the street from the Kishwaukee in Genoa.
I only spin-fished the Fox. South Elgin was a favorite spot, but there's plenty of good places all the way downstream from there. Fish below the dams and around the bridges, especially.

There are some excellent places on the Kishwaukee as well. Rocky rapids usually are good, but downed trees are even better! There's a good population of nice-sized rock bass in the Kish. They will hit almost all winter long if you can find rocks in a deep pool. I've caught 'em in December thru February, and they would spit up mouthfuls of big dragonfly nymphs. There are also the odd pike and walleye in the Kish, but most the fishing is for smallies. I usually used spinning gear back then, but I've fly-fished for them during the summer there. I'd highly recommend minnow imitators such as the Thunder Creek Minnow. Try natural minnow colors, and some with yellow or chartreuse in the belly.

And as has been said already, smallies head for the deepest pools once the water drops to 50 degrees, and can be rather sluggish hitters. Definitely give it a shot again next summer!!

Farmer John, this is an interesting topic you bring up. I have a different, yet very similar problem.

I too am from Pa, have read/practiced "Trout Tactics"(if you trout fish, this is as close to a timeless classic as you'll find) and likewise had Joe's class at PSU. I'm fortunate on all accounts. And I catch my share of spotted critters. It works well.

A few years ago, I wanted to broaden my horizons in the ff'n world. Warmwater surrounds me in SW Pa, more so than quality trout water. I decided to start warmwater fly fishing again.

Like you, I feel without a clue on the subject. I do horribly on the lakes and big slow rivers. I've got a very good smallmouth stream and river nearby and can manage enough fish to stay entertained but man I work for them. I too have realized...this is COMPLETELY different than what I'm used to and I'm NOT terribly good at it.

What makes it especially ironic is that I learned to use a flyrod as a kid on bluegill ponds, smallie streams etc. I was good at it then but I've spent the last 30 years chasing other pesuirts and it isn't coming back all that easily.

This book is pretty good. It's not quite as "text book" as Trout Tactics but it covers some of the topics we're pondering.

http://www.flyfishohio.com/Fly_Fishi...ter_Rivers.htm

I fish a slower warm water river just down the street from me. I am also a big fan of Joe Humpreys. I'm not sure if it's because I learned to fish from Ian James on my home river before I tackled cold water trout rivers or not, but the techniques are very similar. Warm water offers far less top water action however, so you need to really concentrate on the nymphing if you want to get anywhere. Joe is, without a doubt, one of the best. He does just as well on the water here as he does on his home streams. I know the fellow who was pared with Joe on a one fly contest up here a few years back. That fellow got his butt kicked HUGE.

A good part of the time I use upstream nymphing techniques. Check out Joe's nymping video. The only thing is the bottom of this river isn't as friendly as the trout streams I fish. I loose a lot of flies. Also know your fish species. Carp are really not that diffent than going for trout when nothing in rising. Small nymphs and cray fish patterns work the best. Caddis and midges dominate the river here. SM bass will go after nymphs, streamers and crayfish. Poppers on top work too, but you need to know WHERE and when to use them. My favorite flies for Bass are Muddlers of various types, Puke flies and crayfish...but I also fish nymphs for them. My largest river bass to date was a SM on a #16 midge larva.

Last but not least, you have to keep trying and give up on the cute little trout dries. If a bass is going to hit a dead drifted dry, it's going to be big like a grasshopper, cricket, or hex. If you have a good hatch of those it's a good time for dry fly action.

You need to find out what species is in your river then start from there. ...and a good fly to start with is a good ol Olive (or black) Woolly Bugger. It's the one fly choice for most, "I don't know what to do?" situations.

You certainly have some excellent replies and it's great to see the 'locals' providing current data. I would only add that my preferred reference for bass fishing is Harry Murray's 'Fly Fishing for Smallmouth Bass'. It describes bass locations and habits, preferred food, fly patterns and how to fish them.
I also agree with the above comments inferring that techniques for catching large trout are similar to those used for catching bass anywhere.
In general however at this time of year most fish (except early steelhead) are in deep holes and slow to respond to anything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greg H

In general however at this time of year most fish (except early steelhead) are in deep holes and slow to respond to anything.

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SO TRUE!! It's steelie time!! ;)


Walleye are cooperative this time of year if you have them.

Yeah, ooops, so I forgot about my thread for awhile. :D Thanks for all the replies.

My standards have been clouser minnow types and woolly bugger types. I know from the lakes that bass don't take well to the tiny dry trout flies. I wasn't going to bother too much with small nymphs either. But perhaps the dragonfly nymphs would be a good bet.

FishnDave, i think you replied to one of my earlier threads since I remember the bit about Elgin. I'm going to try the Kankakee next summer and make a more dedicated effort on the others too. After moving and starting a new job this year, time was kinda limited. Plus the whole Wisconsin thing, I can certainly make it as the drive is not terribly far.

Ligonier - I have only met Joe Humphreys a few times when he was a guest instructor. Mark Belden was my teacher for the two FF classes. But they are both superb. I feel fine on trout streams and also on lakes, but moving warmwater has me stumped.

For lakes, having a boat is quite worth it. I always targeted the shorelines. Reading the shorelines is similar in principle to reading the water of streams. For fishing for bass, I always looked for cool water (which often meant farther from the shoreline and deeper near structure (tree branches, rocks, islands, rocky points, boatdocks are famous for their "dock bass" ;) ) Slightly rocky bottoms seemed to be better in most cases than sandy bottoms. And when the water got warmer than usual, looking for stream or drainage inlets providing cool water made for good results.


When you guys fly fish on warmwater rivers, do you normally wade or go from the shoreline, assuming you have a choice?

I might look into the steelhead too, but I wonder if my 7wt rod would be useless against them?

Just expand on what you have learned fishing the small streams for trout. It is diffierent but at the same time it is the same. Don't get overwhelmed.

Do a lot of scouting. Look for bait. Look for fish. Watch others, where they fish and how they fish, and whether or not they are catching doing so.

Fish in current are fish in current whether they are trout in tiny streams or bass and panfish in big rivers to stripers in current rips. Find the breaks and pools and eddies and structure and you will find the fish. The same goes for standing water as well.

Picture a crayfish style fly drifting along the bottom in a big river as you would a nymph in a tiny stream. Relate a popper to a dry fly. A drag free drift as well as skating a fly can be just as valuable even in warmwater.

Find some info on catching the warmwater species that doesn't relate to the fly rod as well as the info that does relate to the fly. Learn about rates of fall and triggering strikes.

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Originally Posted by FarmerJohn

When you guys fly fish on warmwater rivers, do you normally wade or go from the shoreline, assuming you have a choice?

I might look into the steelhead too, but I wonder if my 7wt rod would be useless against them?

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I chase the smallies around in the summer and I always wade. I've been using two hand rods (spey & switch), so I can get greater distance and also so I can cast larger flies, with a lighter rod. I would recommend any of Harry Murray's books and or article's on smallmouth bass fishing. They helped me a great deal.
The Kankakee is suppose to be an excellent smallmouth river. It's been highlighted in a number of articles.

A 7wt. rod for great lakes steelhead is prefect! A 10' 7wt. is the rod I most often use for them.

Good morning Farmer John.
Once long ago I went though a similar problem..... too long ago now.

First some background on the problem.

Back then after talking to some old fellas then who by now would have moved on to the big rivers and even bigger fish in the sky, I was introduced to another fly fishing World.

Where even though I knew the fact, that 90% or so of fish's meals are sourced from beneath the surface I did not fish for them where the 90% of meals were.

However even back then I was brain washed by the stupidness of 'it must be a dry fly' thinking. You must see the take, the thrill of seeing a fish enter my human World for a micro second type of thinking.

But the fish's time has been spent feeding, has only spent 10% or less of its time feeding on the surface. Why would anybody wish to only spend 10% of their time fishing and 90% sitting in their car, nobody would.

From that point onwards,
I started to only fish sub surface and the results flowed from there.

Today, it would be so rare that I would connect a dry fly to my leader its impossible to think.
Because if the fish were feeding on the surface I would know there will be more and larger fish feeding sub surface, the 90% of fish and they will feed for longer and in most cases almost appear as though they have hooked themselves if I conduct my leader and line correctly.

In your case I would suggest that you don't use a woolly bugger type or any type of fly with a lot...a lot of weight built into it, and in the pace of a weighted fly, use an improved approach to getting your fly down to where the fish could be feeding.

Myself I use a mono tippet thats as soft as possible and as long as possible without effecting casting.
This is coupled to a heavy 100% fluorocarbon leader and or a sink tip line, depending on the water flow and the depth of the bottom.

In this situation I do not use an indicator.
This arrangement of fly and leader is to allow me, the caster, the fisher to search the water at different depths from the almost surface to the bottom, there by greatly increasing the area where a fish could be stationed awaiting for a meal.

I normally only fish across and down.
This allows me to stimulate a strike, a fish thinking my fly is a meal, by having to fly lift up through the water column. As simple as that, it tricks bass, trout and all manners of fish, even saltwater fish, a fly rising towards the surface.

This action is called the Induced Take.

The late Oliver Kite wrote at length and mastered the induced take when he was exploring nymph fishing.
Might help ?... for a quick read and to further explore the thinking on the Induced Take ideas, the English magazine, FlyFishing and Fly Tying, October this year had a article about Oliver and his ideas.

To fish across and down, the advantages being.
I can fish into areas where I couldn't cast to by simply releasing line.
And while releasing line, I stop and hold for a minute or so depending on the water speed, this then lifts the fly in the water column, I now have effectively searched the stream from top to bottom as my fly drifted down stream.

I am too far up stream to spook a fish, there is no indicator to even upset the fish or warn them of any danger. I just watch like a hawk the fly line and with any add normal movement; I just lift the rod softly, which in its self will lift the fly in the water column, again producing an Induced Take movement.

The soft as possible tippet will allow your fly to move about with all the micro currents that are flowing down the stream, result your fly will now look even more natural in its movements.

I use my leader and or sink tip to get the fly down, not lead wrapped around the fly which only kills the fly's movement.

There is a great educating read on Nymph fishing a book called the Masters of the Nymph; it is printed in the United States.

For anyone interested I will try and find the book and give you the Publisher and code numbers to help you find the book.
Of all the books on fly fishing, this to me is the only one that will feed your mind with ideas, ideas that will help your over come a no fish day and then as a result fish new locations with total confidence AND more importantly results.

One of the strange things about using this concept of fishing, the Induced Take and Nymphs, yes it can be applied to streamers and others from the Nymph Masters book is you WILL start to catch bigger fish that you ever thought lived in 'that' stream.

Change the location to a lake.
Here searching for a most likely location where a fish is looking for a meal is the key to fishing a lake.
To some fishing a lake is boring, to some lake fishing is the a great and rewarding adventure to understand the sub surface and the surface and the wind and all the other factors as they change during the day, here the Induced Take is almost magical !

Cast your floating line and allow the wave and wind action to apply their forces to your fly, which could also be a buzzer, why would the wave and wind produce 'takes', because you connected a soft tippet as long as possible to your almost weightless fly, this in turn will move your fly in mini 'Induced Takes' movements.

Fishing a full sinking line and a booby fly, this is just another case of the Induced Take concept.

Sorry about going on a bit, however this is my pet subject and maybe I could write a 100pages on the subject as a starter.

Kind regards,
UB
Sorry to bore a few.