Kodiak Bear Thoughts, part II

A month or so ago there was a thread about bear safety and spray, which I give/gave a big thumbs down. I just returned from being forced to fish Kodiak Island again for three full weeks. ;) It was perhaps the best Indian Summer in Kodiak history as days were clear, cold and beautiful... And the bears were everywhere!

I guesss I interfaced with at least 50-60 Kodiak bears during the 3 weeks. One day we bumped into 7. A number of times bears showed up while we were fishing and we simply left, particularly if we knew that bear from prior visits.

Late in the summer the bears start feeling the effects of a rotting fish diet (they always eat rotten fish in preference to fresh) and when it gets bad enough they climb the mountain to eat bear grass and berries. They then cycle up for grass and berries and down for fish when the gut feels better. They often repeat this for weeks.

In late September we fished a small stream close to Kodiak airport, the Buskin River, and were interrupted by a bear I recognized as timid from prior trips. I hazed the bear by not moving and maintaining eye contact while talking to him. Realizing I was backlit and probably looking smaller I moved around the bear to get in direct sun as the bear moved across the river. He did not hesitate to leave when I did not flinch and kept staring at his eyes. He could not maintain eye contact.

However, as he waded down the far shore he stopped to eat grass several times... An obvious sign I had chosen poorly and this was a bear to be left alone. I backed off and the bear climbed the far bank and made a little nest to nap in, about 50 yards below the pool we were fishing. It was perfect. As others came to fish I casually mentioned the napping bear and pointed it out and everyone left!

Hundreds of monster silver salmon hung in the pool and the fishing was exceptional! I took each small handful of fish to the van to prevent the bear from chasing us off them later.

A friend fishing with me asked later why I did not have my revolver in-hand while staring down the bear. I explained that would have required a trip to the van because I was not carrying it...

Another day on the same hole a different bear came down the river and we vacated immediately, with good haste. About a 9' boar, he had no inclination to be intimidated by by a fat guy in rubber pants... In previous encounters he had shown no hesitation to stare back when meeting. Besides, he was simply so big he intimidated me. ;)

My point is simple, despite the windiness... Most bears are not an issue and if you spend some time around them there is little need for concern. But those bears at the top of the pecking order know it and should not be toyed with.
art in rubber pants

I am a bit surprised no one has additional comment or insight on bears...
art

Well, ok. I really don't know squat about the things but enjoy your reports about them. I knew Fred Bare and he shot one of them and that impressed me quite a bit. Mostly I know if I find piles of 'stuff' with little bells in it,,, make sure I can outrun my buddy.

Good report!! First time that I saw it.

Was the lack of the gun just an oversight or possible overconfidence?

JJ

Art -

My reaction when I first read your post was that the situation you find yourself in with bears is very atypical. I've only seen a few bears, some black bears and a few grizzlies, and the circumstances were nothing like you describe.

The way you can manage the situation, based on familiarity with given bears, is not something that would work most of the places I might run into them, and it might literally be "running into" them at very close range in tight quarters. I suspect most of the folks down in the lower 48 who get out in the backcountry are more likely to have that kind of encounter than the kind you describe.

Maybe that is why I differ with you on carrying bear spray. Not thinking in terms of having plenty of opportunity to manage the situation makes having other options and some measure of defense more important.

I do think noise and bear awareness are the first and best defenses. Just carrying bear spray is a great way to up the awareness factor. For that reason alone, I would encourage anyone going into bear country, black or grizzly, to carry it "at the ready."

John

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Originally Posted by jjtroutbum

Good report!! First time that I saw it.

Was the lack of the gun just an oversight or possible overconfidence?

JJ

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JJ
I guess it is possible to call it overconfidence, but knowing what to look for in a bear to decide whether to hang around or leave immediately maintains perspective...

More often than not I go without a gun of any kind. This year there were far more bears than usual on the Kodiak road system and they were a bit more aggressive than usual, so I carried a gun quite a bit this year.

Last year I had an issue with a woman carrying a shotgun that had no business doing so. She carried it "hot" and had no concept of not pointing it at people. We had words...
art

John
Individual bears act quite differently and they probably act much the same way in other places as they do here. I have "met" bears in many states and many circumstances and find they are pretty much the same based on what they have available to eat.

My experience with bear spray is what keeps me from carrying it, not the bear situations I find myself in. I have seen it deployed twice and neither use made the problem go away and firearms were required in both. Further, there are many stories of folks misusing the spray and incapacitating themselves. The more "at the ready" the spray is the more inclined folks are to accidently discharge it.

A story often repeated which I cannot verify in any way involves a cannister release inside a very small plane cockpit...

Then there is the old joke about the tourist asking if bear spray actually kept the bears away because it really burned when applied...
art

I don't know beans about bears except there is no question where I belong on the food chain. Wasn't there a bear guru/expert a year or so ago who had essentially lived with hundreds of bears phtographing them, knew all about what to do and not do, etc., and he and his girl friend were eaten by one of the Gentle Bens?

I certainly would have to put myself in the camp of not having much information of real relevance to add to this post. Yet I feel complete to ask - "if you don't have a back up plan when dealing with bears isn't your first mistake likely to be your last?"

I certainly understand that having some savvy and being able to "read" an animal is as much art as science (maybe more). I consider myself a pretty fair judge of dogs and horses. Thank god, neither have tried to eat me, or at least not much of me, yet. I've make a couple of judgment errors on both and end up with more wear and tear than I wanted. Bears are something I'd like to work real hard at minimizing my "mistakes" with!

A friend of mine went fishing in Alaska this summer. He brought back some great photo's. I was most impressed by the ones of the "guide" with the 870 slung over his back. Looked to me like the best plan I could think of for fishing in "bear county".

Watch your back out there and stay safe.

Ive only ever encountered one wild bear, and that was while hunting in western PA. It was so large we initially thought it was 2 bears laying side by side until it got up and mosied on down the hillside about 30-40 yards away.

As far as carrying some form of protection in bear country, I think it just makes sense to carry it. The weight of a revolver or a can of bearspray isn't going to be enough to limit mobility, so why not take it just in case. If there's anything Ive learned about wild animals and nature in general, its that no matter how much you know, you'll always be surprised. If that surprise happens to be a large bear acting differently than I expected I'd rather be prepared.

I believe being prepared involves more than one issue and a can of spray fixes none of them. An argument may be made that I should not advocate against spray because someone may wind up hurt because the listened to me and left it home. Let me be clear in the fact I carry firearms when the need is there. When the wrong bear shows up I split and fast!

There is a very real chance to hurt yourself or someone else with the spray. It must be applied under perfect conditions to achieve marginal results... I am not fond of the odds.
art

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Originally Posted by ggh

I don't know beans about bears except there is no question where I belong on the food chain. Wasn't there a bear guru/expert a year or so ago who had essentially lived with hundreds of bears phtographing them, knew all about what to do and not do, etc., and he and his girl friend were eaten by one of the Gentle Bens?

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Timothy Treadwell and his girlfriend were killed and eaten by a bear. But he was anything but an expert. He lived with the bears but made so many poor choices it was beyond laughable. I spent quite a bit of time in the same area with photo safari operations acting as bear guard. Treadwell was lucky to have lasted as long as he did.
art

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Treadwell was lucky to have lasted as long as he did.
art

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Amen to that! A true Darwin Award winner.

Regarding the use of OC (pepper) spray, I'm a trainer for our agency on OC and you're right it's not a panacea or "magic bullet" solution to a bear or for that matter a human problem. There are many down sides to improperly trained folks using OC for protection. One of the biggest fallicies is that it will stop people (or aminals) in their tracks. In a lot of cases just the opposite is true. Enraged people or animals are still quite capable of doing great bodily harm and injury after being exposed to OC. One of the worst things you can do is spray OC on something that's biting you. It only causes it to bite down harder. While I certainly don't want to discourage anyone from carrying OC, to do so with out proper training in it's use, deployment, and effects is, IMHO, a really bad idea.

I also recommend you get sprayed with the stuff to guage the effects on yourself. One of the things I tell all my students is if you're going to use spray, you're going to be exposed to the effects of the spray yourself. If you can't recognize what's going on and effectively deal with the exposure then you shouldn't be carrying and using the stuff. The only garantee in OC spray is you'll get it on YOU if you use it, even under ideal conditions.

While I don't agree with the statement that it has to be applied in "perfect conditions" if you don't understand the concepts of effective range and wind drift you will limit your ability to use the spray to its best effect. Good bear sprays might have a range of 20', under ideal conditions. If you're 20' from an unhappy bear, closing that distance fast, then spray might make a difference. Hey try it, what have you got to loss? But you better resign yourself to taking a beating of some kind. My bet is you'll hardly notice the discomfort from the OC spray while the bear is mauling you and if you're lucky enough to feel the effects after the attack is over remember, that pain you're feeling means you're alive!

Fished the Buskin river in the summer of 1959, stationed at the Naval Air base at the time. They were all pinks at that time, 6 lbs., 31 inches. Good eating early on. Fished every day I had a chance and loved it. Take care and have a lot of respect for the Kodiak bears!!

I am no expert, but I do know of one sure fired way of telling the difference between a black bear and a grizzly. Climb a tree. If the bear climbs the tree and eats you, it is a black bear, if it knocks the tree down and then eats you. It is a grizzly. (that comment should show my complete lack of bear expertise) :)

I'm wondering about the logic concerning carrying a handgun for bear protection. Wouldn't it be wiser to carry a carbine or something similar? My reasoning is that handguns are usually accurate at short ranges only, and if a grizzly or Kodiak is that close to me, then it's too damn close. I've only fired a handgun once in my life, and that was a .357. I wasn't too good with it much past 40 ft or so. I'm good up to 200 yds with my 7mm Rem Mag. Maybe someone with more handgun experience can chime in here. Thanks.

Ken

Your point is dead-on. But, in a true charge the shooting distance will be under 15 yards almost every time. When you increase the size of the firearm you increase the likelihood it will be left in the rig or on the bank. Anything in the hand beats something in the rig.

The vast majority of bear charges are bluffing and the posture is very different in bluffing bears versus charging bears. Rarely will a bear see someone at great distance and just charge. I have been bluff charged many times to inside 15 yards. When the ears are up and the bear is making noises there will be no charge. If he drops his ears, even for just a quick second, it is definitely time to leave.

It is not so much the difference in accuracy as the difference in power between handguns and rifles. The .30-30 is a very mild rifle cartridge commonly found in convenient carbine form. It is easily twice the muzzle energy of the 357 Magnum loaded with 180gr bullets. The 45-70 is very popular as a bear protection while fishing rifle and it is nearly 1 1/2X the energy of the 30-30.

357 shooting 180gr bullets at 1500fps:
180X1500x1500=405,000,000
30-30 shooting 180gr bullets at 2100fps:
180X2100X2100=793,800,000
45-70 shooting 400gr bullets at 2100fps:
400X2100x2100=1,764,000,000

This is only by way of explaining the logic at each end. The good news is that a charging bear will not know how many foot-pounds (foot-grains in the examples) the bullet had. Broken parts stop bears, not foot-pounds. Many huge bears have been killed with ridiculously small bullets.

Research done by the AK DF&G found the 375H&H to be the ideal bear defense cartridge when compared to other big gun options.

Inside Anchorage city limits a hiker was attacked from very close range and managed to shoot once with a 44magnum revolver. He killed the bear on his boot tops. he kept repeating he was amazed he was still unchewed...

It is a question everyone needs to answer for themselves... Are you likely to leave your firearm on the bank while fishing? I have been forced to cross streams I really did not want to cross because of bear traffic. Packing weight helps hold you on bottom, certainly, but it makes slipping and falling more dangerous. ;) I have been caught with my rifle on the bank, but never my handgun. I have been caught many times with both in the rig, though...

I was just sent some photos of me with a Kodiak bear less than 15 yards away and we just minded our own businesses and all was fine. I did keep a very close eye on him though as he passed. ;) I will see about posting them later today... I have several projects to do here...
art

While a carbine or rifle or even a 12 gauge shotgun would be a more dependable option to stop a bear, carrying one while fishing is IMHO impractical. Unless you have a fishing buddy on the bank and you take turns actually holding the gun, it wont do you much good. I havent tried it, but I cant see casting with even a short barreled rifle over my shoulder being comfortable.

A .44 on your hip is a much more feasable option. Its a lot quicker to draw a handgun from a holster then to unsling a rifle your trying to keep out of the way while you fish. And since Id assume more encounters happen when going to or from a fishing spot, carrying a long gun and your flyrod together seems to bring up some other problems compared to the pistol.

The stopping power you lose can be argued either way with too many variables to account for, but I think the convenience of a handgun outweighs those costs. 45ft, or 15 yds is probably the longest shot you should be taking if your trying to claim you were defending yourself from a bear. If it starts charging beyond that, it just gives you more time to steady yourself and prepare to shoot if you need to. That being said, people shoot deer and other medium sized game animals at over 100yds with revolvers so the accuracy depends on the gun and the shooter.

6 rounds from a .44 inside 15 yards should be enough to handle a charging bear. If you cant stop it with that, a carbine or rifle probably wouldnt have been any more helpful.