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The TVA recently published for comment proposed changes in operation of the Tim's Ford Dam. The changes are intended to warm the water downstream from the dam for the benefit of darters and mussels listed under the ESA and some other species. As a tailwater stream, it is cool enough for trout only so many miles downstream.
http://www.tva.gov/environment/repor...sford2/dea.pdf
Just some thoughts. Was it a trout stream BEFORE the dam was built? Are the trout there native fish, or are they introduced species (browns, bows, for instance). Were the endangered fish present in the river before the dam went up?
I believe that an endangered species, no matter how ugly or useless we might think it is, has a right to exist, and we have no right to remove it from the Earth. There's plenty of trout, in places mother nature put them, and in places we put them. But when the last of a unique thing is gone, it's gone.
DG -
The report is 98 pages, in total, but with so many graphs, tables, appendices, etc. that it is probably only 50 pages of content, a lot of which has to do with matters totally unrelated to the fisheries aspects of the report.
That is still too much for me to digest readily, so I read some of the pertinent parts and scanned a bunch of what did not seem all that relevant to the trout question.
Trout are not native to the Elk. It is a "put and take" fishery stocked by Tennessee Fish and Game that came into being after the Tims Ford Dam was built, creating the tailwater that is the subject of the report.
There are actually six or seven different NATIVE aquatic critters, native to the Elk River, that have already been listed as endangered or are considered candidates for listing. In fact, the Elk is the sole remaining habitat for one of the listed endangered species, and maintenance of the tailwater as a trout fishery is incompatible with efforts to enhance the survival of that species in the section of the river ( about 15 miles below the dam, as I understood the report ) which comprises the trout fishery.
BUT - it does appear that they are seeking a solution which will NOT eliminate the trout fishery, if that is possible. Like I said above, I didn't try to read the whole thing word for word, but the tone of the report seeks to strike a balance between the native endangered or threatened species and the existence of a viable put and take trout fishery.
Hopefully, Jack Hise will take note of this thread and add his thoughts. Certainly, of all the members of the BB, he and a few of the other fellows from that immediate area, have the most at stake in the final outcome.
John
That having been said, I'm glad I'm in Idaho.
Much as I hate to agree with DG , In this case I have to.Quote:
Originally Posted by DG
I fished the Elk at Tim's Ford Dam Wednesday. It had been stocked with Rainbows and Browns Tuesday. The water temp about 3' down was 63 degrees. They have since increased the release from 100 cfs to 165 cfs and are planning some short generation cycles.
Rhonda Page (Tim's Fly's & Lies, Lynchburg, TN 931 759 5058 ) has established contact with a person in the TWRA. She has asked us to check the water temps when fishing the Elk, especially from Ferris Creek to Old Dam Ford and pass them on to her. This streatch of the river is approx 6 miles down stream and has been very productive for those of us that wade. It also holds some fair sized hold over trout.
I'm sure that both the Middle Tennessee Fly Fishers and the Lynchburg Fly Fishing Club will be keeping a close eye on the river conditions.
As a side note. After months of releasing only 40 cfs from Normandy Dam into the Duck River the TVA uped the flow to 155 cfs for several hours last weekend and droped back to 88 cfs. I fished below the Dam Tuesday and was pleased to see the River runing cleaner and higher. The water temp at 3' was 64 degrees. I see that they are now releasing at 135 cfs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DG
Before we get carried away with this sentiment about some stream in TN, you need to look at the big picture, including streams in CO, MT, and NM. There are many prize trout fisheries in each of the foregoing states, often with dams manager by the BOR. But for the impoundment and the steady supply of cold water, a lot of the streams would not be suitable for trout where they are today. For years, members of the Sierra Club has been advocating the breaching of the dam on the Bighorn to restore the stream to warm water conditions for the benefit of the native squawfish.
Does anyone seriously believe that the San Juan or the Taylor would be the fisheries that they are if they were not tailwaters?
Middle TN has limited trout fishing opportunities, and they exist only because of tailwater fisheries.
Generally, dams provide a lot of problems for fish, particularly the anadromous species. But for trout, they can be the lifesource, and if you study the actions of TU, the FFF and other groups, you will see that they often oppose dam operations in the Pac NW and support retention of dams in other places. In most instances, the temp of the water coming out is too high and the fight is to get the Corps or other operators to release cooler water (this is very true of the dams in the Snake and Columbia River systems). Ironically, in this one, the water coming out is too cold and they are trying to get it warmer.
Jack:
Do you know whether there are streamborn fish in there?
There are some big browns in the holes several miles downstream from the dam. So while I can't say if there are breeding populations in the stream, there are fish that are surviving long enough to get over 20 inches.
Significantly, the Elk is only cold enough about 12 miles to support trout. As far as the science of the matter goes, there are several unanswered questions that should be pondered before blindly following TVA and the USFWS:
1. What evidence is there that the darter and the mussels were in the 12 mile stretch that is currently habitable by trout?
2. After the proposed changes are implemented, how far downstream will the Elk be habitable for trout?
3. What are the probabilities that raising the temp will provide habit or any other type of improvement in the only 12 miles of the stream that is habitable for trout? How much additional habitat will the other critters have that they do not have now?
Don't know about streamborn trout. I'll do some checking though.
Yes there some 20+" fish below Ferris Creek. Both Browns and Rainbows.
RT, If you should come up to fish the Elk shoot me a PM. Maybe we can wet a line togather.
I've fished the Elk several times, I just don't know Why they cant move the darters and mussels somewhere else thats warmwater, and has less predators likely to eat them.
As an avid fly angler (130 days a year on average), I wouldn't lose any sleep if the San Juan (which I fished for years) turned back into a free-flowing desert river with nary a trout in the section below where Navajo Dam now stands. Or the Dolores (which I fish). Or the Gunnison (which I fish). Or the Madison, (which I fish)... We MADE those places. They are ARTIFICIAL. They have nonnative sport fish placed in them for our convenience.
The continued existence of rare and endangered species, and efforts to turn them back into UN-endangered species, is more important to me, as both an outdoorsman and as a biologist, than having some convenient place to catch trout. Especially if those trout are not native fish. I have fished a lot of tailwaters in my day, but I would still rather have native fish in free flowing waters, even if they are not trout or anything else I could catch on a fly. If this was MY tailwater, the one I fished every afternoon after work?
Yes, I would rather have darters and mussels and what have you than a handy fishin hole.
I guess I should state how I feel about this: To begin with, I will have to stay in the middle because I am just a person who loves to tie flies and fish with a fly rod for any species of fish. If the only fish I fly fished for was trout, I could take a stand on this. In the beginning there was only the Elk River which contained many species of fish from small mouth bass, large mouth bass, black perch, bluegill, walleye, etc. When they built a dam across the Elk they created Tims Ford Lake. It was created to provide flood control and to generate electricity. The lake is approximately 25 miles long and has very few shallow areas. Overall average depth would probably be around 85 feet. There are several areas that are 100 feet deep and deeper. The thermocline is around 25 feet in the heat of the summer. This means there is not really sufficient oxygen to support a lot of fish once you go deeper than about 50 feet. They pull water from the base of the dam for their generator which will be very cold and very little oxygen in it. They do introduce oxygen to their release water. When they built the dam and started releasing water from the base of the dam, it made the Elk River below the dam too cold for the warm water fish that use to live there. To provide fish for the landowners who use to fish the Elk where it ran through their land, they started stocking trout. That is why they call it a "put and take" resource. They are trying to please everyone which does not work. I think what really "ticked" everyone off the most was they started to releasing warmer water by letting water through the dam at a higher point, and they never posted this action to receive any feedback from everyone. They just started doing it. This is not right but it is politics. Now you have some people who guide and they are not happy about this because some had access to some further down the river areas through private property and they felt this was their private area and now that area may become to warm for trout and the trout will move further up the river and now these guides will have to guide on the river with other guides instead of having their private access areas. I understand their situation and feel for them. They are not saying they intend to warm up the entire river below the dam. They will still release water that is cold enough for trout, but, the trout section of the river will be shorter. That could work out except that they are also talking about changing the way they generate by running the generator in "spurts" instead of running it for 3-4 hours and then shuting it down. The "spurts" will be like running the generator for 30 minutes to an hour and off and back up again for a short while a couple hours later. What this will do is eliminate a lot of wadable water and force more fishermen to use canoes or drift boats to fish. This upsets the person who just wants to wade fish and I feel for them. Do I feel there are hold over fish, yes, I do. I have caught 24" rainbows and 24" browns and I feel they were hold overs. I cannot say for sure if there is any natural reproduction going on, but, I just feel there is some but probably not enough at this time to maintain the river. I do know that there have been 5+ pound trout caught over the years. My thoughts on this, if they shorten the cold water section, would be to stock more browns since they can stand warmer water and we could possibly have a good brown trout river with reproduction. There are all kinds of battle lines drawn up on this and no one knows what the outcome will be at this time. For myself, I will continue to fish the Elk River for what ever species of fish is there and will continue to enjoy the Elk River and the peace and quiet it provides. I am just a fly fisherman who enjoys using the fly rod and I just need water and something to take my fly and pull back. I will just have to remain neutral on this even if it makes some upset with me. I do love catching trout, but, I also enjoy fly fishing for warm water species too. Just my opinions and nothing more......
Well, people who made buggy-whips whined when Henry invented a car. Put horse thieves out of work too. Somebody put non-native fish in the Au Sable in Michigan too. Terrible thing except for the fact that somebody else jammed so many logs down it a few years back that the sawdust killed everything in it. I would rather fish for Grayling at Grayling, but will take what there is left and try hard to keep it going so others might have a shot at it too.
DG et al:
Virtually every trout stream in the southeastern US, if not all, is an "artificial" trout stream when it comes down to it. Although there are numerous streams in, for example, GA, NC, SC, TN, and VA that have temperatures that are cold enough to sustain trout year around and permit stream breeding. But the only "trout" indigenous to the region is the brook trout, which is not a "trout" at all and is instead a char, and is more closely related to arctic char and dolly varden than rainbows or browns. The only reason there are "trout streams" in most of the eastern US is because of the penchant of the British to transport and stock trout, and later the states did it. This is true of the trout streams as far away as South Africa. There are a lot of "artificial" trout streams all over the country; but if one looks at the matter closely enough, those "artificial" streams are often some of the most productive, grow some of the largest trout, and pull fishermen from some of the greatest destinations. At bottom, a lot of what we might call "artificial" streams, like the San Juan and the Taylor, are some of the "best" and "most desirable" streams in the country.
One can not turn back the clock, the dams are not going to disappear, and the economic and recreational benefits of having trout there is much more perceptible than having warm water acquatic species. There is no payoff of living in a fantasy world an trading the bird in the hand for the hope of getting two in the bush.
My guess is that if they turn it back to a warm-water fishery, bass, gar and other warm-water predators will move upstream and be an even bigger threat to the Boulder Darters (Etheostoma wapiti), and mussels.
In the case of the darters, the term 'endangered' is a bit misleading. The darters are threatened in the Elk River, but they are raised commercially by the Dale Hollow and Chattahootche National Fish Hatcheries for release into the wild, so the chances of them actually becoming extinct are slim. And they also occur naturally in other places along the Tennessee River drainage, in Tn., Ga., and Al. While not numerous, they are not in danger of extinction.
The reason for the Darters decline is not the Dam (although it probably didn't help), but the lack of boulders on the bottom, which these fish require for spawning. The darters have adapted to the temperature and the environment. My suggestion is to leave things as they are, and maybe just import some (lots of) boulders from somewhere else and place them all along the 63 mile stretch of river that they inhabit, and let them do their thing. Altering the water temperature can have catastrophic unintended consequences for all the river species. Importing boulders is a much less drastic, and safer alternative that would help the darters, and keep the trout fishery as well. Everybody, including the fish, wins.
Just my opinion, as a scientist.
Information from the Cumberland Chapter TU.
Attention Elk River Fisherman: TWRA Contact Information
TENNESSEE WILDLIFE RESOURCES AGENCY
Frank Fiss
Aquatic Conservation Coordinator
ttp://files.e2ma.net/18348/assets/docs/tims_ford_draft_ea_twra_comments.pdf