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I've noticed that Mike Conners mentions a wet fly gut link on the old wet flies. Is this similar to a gut loop on blind eye Atlantic Salmon Flies or is it possibly snelled onto a blind eye hook?
Just curious. Now where did I mislay my gut twister?
REE
Ron, it was a piece of silkworm gut which was flattened somewhat with the teeth, and then whipped to a blind hook using the resinous wax we recently discussed.
The old time dressers were always complaining about the quality of gut which was obtainable. It was relatively expensive, and required quite some care in use. It had to be soaked for quite a while before knotting it, or using it at all, as it otherwise very brittle and broke easily.
Silkworm gut is the actual intestine of the silkworm, which is pulled straight and then dried.
Silk is from the cocoon of a silkworm.
Other threads were also used like hemp, Indian weed, and some others but silk was preferred, and silkworm gut was the favoured arming link.
TL
MC
Was unable to edit, so posted this again;Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Eagle Elk
Ron, it was a piece of silkworm gut which was flattened somewhat with the teeth, and then whipped to a blind hook using the resinous wax we recently discussed.
The old time dressers were always complaining about the quality of gut which was obtainable. It was relatively expensive, and required quite some care in use. It had to be soaked for quite a while before knotting it, or using it at all, as it was otherwise very brittle and broke easily.
Silkworm gut is the actual intestine of the silkworm, which is pulled straight and then dried.
Silk is from the cocoon of a silkworm.
Other threads were also used like hemp, Indian weed, and some others but silk was preferred, and silkworm gut was the favoured arming link.
Twisted and knotted gut was also used as casting line, usually referred to as a "foot link". This was attached to the main line which was either twisted and knotted horsehair, silk and horsehair, or silk. Many complained that silk lines were not very good because they rotted too quickly, especially if stored damp.
TL
MC
Mike, is it what we call a gut snell? sometimes single and on larger flies doubled to protect the fly gut tie in spot?
thx
No, a "snell" uses a snell knot in the material itself. On the old flies, the hooks were whipped to the gut, which was part of the dressing.
I have seen some flies dressed on snelled hooks, but this is not the same thing at all. They are also a lot bulkier.
TL
MC
No, a "snell" uses a snell knot in the material itself. On the old flies, the hooks were whipped to the gut, which was part of the dressing.
I have seen some flies dressed on snelled hooks, but this is not the same thing at all. They are also a lot bulkier.
Various tricks were used to stop the gut fraying where it was mounted on the hook. Usually at least two turns of thread under the gut where it left the mount. This was not always done however. On some sparse flies, only five turns of thread were used for everything.
TL
MC
I think I'm just using the wrong term so are these hooks what you refer to as "gut links".
pix at this address:
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u...geallcock2.jpg
Packaging of the vintage allcocks and bartleets all say "hooks to selected gut" and there is no mention of "link" so I'm assuming I'm using the wrong term for the same item.
These are size 10 and 20
thx
Yes. Although those are pre-fabricated "hooks to gut". When fly-dressing, the gut was whipped to the hook as part of the dressing.
Attaching the hook to the gut by whipping was referred to as "arming".
There are lots of old terms for many of these things, which are rarely if ever used now.
Also, the meaning of some terms has changed over the years. "Dubbing" is a case in point. As is "Palmering". Few people actually know the origins of these terms.
TL
MC
These are "flies to gut";
http://flytyingforum.com/mike/Flies/...2/plate_2.html
TL
MC
Mike,
Thanks for the info. My wife ties Atlantic Salmon flies on blind eye hooks so I'm familiar with gut. I'm assuming that the arming is done in much the same way as it is on the salmon flies only no loop is formed. May have to try and find some blind eye hooks for a change of pace.
REE
heres a link for gut if you want to buy
http://www.feathersmc.com/products/index/Gut
My pleasure. You can find a complete description of the method used here;Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Eagle Elk
http://flytyingforum.com/mike/Flies/...ly-making.html
TL
MC
Does anyone know if the silkworm gut industry still exists in Spain? I recently bought some Partridge brand twisted gut and it is very nice stuff, pure white, and definitely doesn't need to be soaked to be workable. I have never seen the untwisted material that one could use to make a wet fly gut link (or snell) except for old stock.
Over thirty years now since I saw Spanish silkworm gut for sale. The stuff we mainly used to get was Japanese silkworm gut.
All silkworm gut has to be soaked before use, or it will break very easily.
Most people were of the opinion that Spanish silkworm gut was the best, but it was also the most expensive. I think these industries largely collapsed after the second world war when many synthetic fibres became widely available. Primarily nylon.
One may occasionally find various surgical gut sutures on offer in various places, made of anything from sheep gut to vicryl, ( useless for fishing, dissolves slowly in water, was designed to simply disappear in wounds that were stitched, obviating the necessity for removing stitches when the wound healed).
If you want silkworm gut now, your only real option is to obtain the silkworms and make it yourself. Some people breed them as food for various pet animals. There may be a few specialist dealers offering it, especially for making loop eyes on "authentic" salmon flies. Fine undrawn gut, ( the best) or even the drawn gut, ( which was even less reliable), is likely to be extremely difficult to find.
Drawn gut was the origin of the "X" system still widely used. "1 X" means the gut was drawn once thro0ugh a tapered die. "4X" means it was drawn four time through progressively smaller dies, shaving off more material each time it was drawn.
This system is largely defunct now, as it only related to the diameter of the gut anyway, and bore no real relation to the breaking strain, which was dependent on the quality of the gut.
Most of the good gut, which was used for leaders, was expensive, especially if one wanted the really good stuff. The best was fine undrawn silkworm gut, which was clear. All sorts of stuff was used, including "cat-gut", which is usually the twisted and drawn entrails of various animals, usually sheep or goats. This is still used today ( or was until recently) for surgical work, as it biodegrades naturally and quickly.
Apparently some violin players also insist on using it on their instruments. This is of course not much of a recommendation for it as leader material, and it was also extremely unreliable.
There was one chap I knew who made the silkworm gut himself. It was also about the best I ever saw. He gave me a packet containing a number of pieces, (probably a dozen, everything came in dozens then, and it was difficult for people to break the habit), all about a yard long, in exchange for some of my flies. I used this very successfully for a couple of seasons.
It is many years now since I used gut links at all. Most of the people I knew back then used horsehair links, and I also use these for a while. As soon as nylon ( monofilament) became widely available, most people switched to using it, and there was no longer a market for the silkworm gut. It was still used by surgeons for quite a while, but I have not seen it offered for quite a while now. Modern synthetics have more or less completely replaced it.
TL
MC
Normand,
Thanks for the link. VEE has been doing business with John for some time. He's an excellent source for all things salmon fly.
Mike, the link that Normand gave is for Spanish Silkworm Gut.
Again, Thanks for the information.
REE
I found in John Harrington Keene's 1887 Fly Fishing and Fly Tying a reference to gut "snells" whipped to the hook with tying silk, so I believe we're talking about the same thing. James Henshall in Black Bass and Mary Orvis Marbury 1892 refer to the gut "snell" being wrapped on the hook with waxed silk. I agree that the modern snell is mono "snelled" knotted to the hook.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike-Connor
Also JH Keene mentions that the longest gut from a silk worm is about 23 inches, so I suspect that "knotless" gut that is longer than a couple of feet, that we see sometimes is actually silk thread twisted and treated with something. Have you seen longer silk worm gut?
Yes, I have seen some longer strands from specially bred silkworms. Otherwise about 20 inches is normal, ( sometimes a lot less), and 23 inches as noted by Mr.Keene is also probably correct on average.Quote:
Originally Posted by halomidge
I have the books you mention, and the info is largely correct.
Dressing a fly to a pre-fabricated "snelled" hoook, (apart from being quite difficult, either in the hand or in a vice), regardless of how the hook is "snelled", is not the same as "arming" a piece of gut and incorporating it into a dressing.
Using gut links now is basically an anachronism. One may do it if one wishes to be "authentic", but I prefer to be practical! :)
TL
MC
Agree. It's funny how we sometimes think we are doing something unique (dropper flies for example) when they have been in existence for 100's of years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike-Connor
When one snells a gut to the hook with waxed silk as the first step (Henshall & Keene), what would be different than taking an already snelled (gut snell, wrapped with silk to the hook) and dressing a fly on it? Do you have an example of "arming" on your web site, I'd really be interested in seeing an example, or maybe you can reference me to a old book. So I assume by your definition that the "arming" was done later in the dressing - is that correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike-Connor
Thanks, MC this is all very interesting stuff.
Mainly in the bulk. The pre whipped hooks to gut already have two layers of silk on them. The dressing would have to be applied over this.Quote:
Originally Posted by halomidge
Here is a description of arming gut;
http://flytyingforum.com/mike/Flies/...ly-making.html
TL
MC
Thanks Mike,
It makes sense when the body is silk and the fly is small, that the gut would be whipped or armed with the same silk used for the body, and in the case where a fur or a built up body is going to be employed than a pre snelled gut would work fine.
Thanks for the info and conversation.
Ron, if you ever need gut, shoot me a PM. I have a few coils kicking around, and can twist it from trout sizes all the way to 6/0 + salmon irons. Jamie
Many of these flies were dressed with a single layer of silk.
Here is how to do it ( scroll down to "Hen Blackie" video);
http://www.gwentanglingsociety.co.uk...d=557&Itemid=1
TL
MC