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casting ?
On a typical back cast, should the line unroll all the way, leader and fly too, before you begin moving the rod for the forecast, or should there still be some line that is unrolling when you begin the forecast?
Jeff
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dead fish don't make reel music
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Jeff,
ALL the way back and lined out straight behind you.
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Christopher Chin
Jonquiere Quebec
Personal Page: [url=http://pages.videotron.com/fcch/:c8275]http://pages.videotron.com/fcch/[/url:c8275]
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Hey Fishing Fool,
If it's not finished unrolling when you
begin your forward cast, it's not going to
gain the full momentum of your forward
stroke. Thus, insufficient line speed on
your forward cast to lay the line out. Warm
regards, Jim
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fishin',
Not being funny or anything but I really don't know. The only times I look at my backcast is when there's something I have to measure or need to avoid, like trees and such. Otherwise, and I know this isn't the best way, I just go by feel.
The flyfishers that watch all of their backcasts must have whiplash at the end of a day.
Allan
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Allan,
I "usually" watch my backcast on longer casts.
I heard this is "wrong". Any idea why ??
Thanx
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Christopher Chin
Jonquiere Quebec
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Allen,
I don't watch my line any longer than it
takes to get the feel of a rod. Once I know
the feel of a full extension of line on a
given rod, then I'm in my groove! I can
close my eyes and just cast and enjoy every
minute of it.*G* Warm regards, Jim
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Fishin' fool, it needs to roll all the way out. Ideally, your back cast should look and act just like your forward cast.
Fcch, I think I remember hearing that watching your back cast can let you drop your shoulder. But don't hold me to that. I'm getting senile in my young age http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif
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An old saying says " Your forward cast is only as good as your back cast."
I agree it should straighten all the way behind before you start the forward cast.
Once you get the "feel" of a rod. You should not need to look behind. Just as Jim says. Like him I go by feel and as I do a lot of Night Fishing. The feel is the only way to go. But as long as you are having fun. Do your thing. Jax
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I'm a much better Fly fisher when talking fishing, than when I'm Actually Fly fishing!
[This message has been edited by Jax (edited 08 July 2005).]
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So I guess that this may be my main problem with attaining lengthier casts and better line speed. Thanks all.
Jeff
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dead fish don't make reel music
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A long time ago a very wise man gave me a bit of advise that seems to applie to many occasions. And I quote, "If you and me was exactly alike, there'd be no need for one of us." Point being you need to decide for yourself. If you will advance quicker by watching your back cast, if it will help you become more confident, comfortable and able with a fly rod, whats the harm and who's to say. Personaly I instruct my students to observe their efforts in all directions. Seeing is beliveing, and understanding. OK actualy I put it a different way. If you can only see half of what your doing, then your guessing at the other half. Its going to take you twice as long to learn. This of course means your learning half as fast, which may turn you into a half-fast-caster.
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Captn. Paul Darby
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F'fool,
Some good answers here.
Me, I've always gone by the feel too but in each case it goes that a good forward cast "begins" with a good back cast. It just has to be.
By that I mean that if you notice your rod tip on that back cast, the instant (??) you see it "load"...eg bend...proceed with the forward cast.
And as you prolly already know, it's that timing thing. You can read all you want and listen to each of us here but you have to do it and "feel" it load....
And you will! Keep it fun!
And Mr Castwell, that one liner that you put onboard here is one of the best pieces of info anyone practicing casting can do to remember....Sump'n about "...keeeping thy back cast uppeth!"
I cast most every week in the nearby open City Hall yard and I repeat that mentally a lot! I need to. I love the practice on both the graphites and bamboo's!
Good luck fishin fool and keep it fun!
Tomorrow we're leaving for a 2week trip near Canada FFing for muskies. Got 3 thus far. If I get one over 40" I"ll post her pic. at the end of the month.
Jeremy.
[This message has been edited by Jeremy (edited 08 July 2005).]
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*chuckle*
I will fly into the face of conventional wisdom, and the previous posters, and will state that if you wait until the backcast has unrolled completely before you _start_ your forward stroke, you will be too late.
The casting movements smoothly blend into one another, and if one were to film/video a competent caster, and view the footage in slomo one will see that there is absolutely no pause between the unrolling of forward (or backward) casting loop and the their transition into the opposite direction movement. To achieve this the actual stroke commences fractionally prior the full unroll.
Cheers,
Hans W
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=== You have a friend in Low Places ===
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Spot on Hans, you've obviously been peeking.
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Captn. Paul Darby
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JC,
As Sherlock was overheard to comment:
Elementary, my dear Watson, elementary...
Cheers,
Hans W
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=== You have a friend in Low Places ===
http://www.danica.com/flytier
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JC,
Assuming you are asking (me?) and soliciting a serious response:
When I teach casting, looking back over shoulder never comes into it.
Too many irregularities may creep into posture and stroke, which in turn are much harder to iron back out.
Cheers,
Hans W
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=== You have a friend in Low Places ===
http://www.danica.com/flytier
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Hans,
Thanx, ... I tried NOT looking back and see the "benefits".
I guess if you ever see me cast,. ... you'd just shrug your shoulders, smile and say, ... "Well, I suppose you are having fun".
I'm not elegant, ... I DO cast far when and where it's needed. ... BUT I do have a heck of a lot of fun. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif
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Christopher Chin
Jonquiere Quebec
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The comment that a good forward cast begins with a good back cast is based on the physics of the line being the same weight and having to travel with the same energy to the same distance in both directions. In our casting club I find many (novices esp.) have lazy back-casts (because in every other 'throwing' motion they have ever used, the 'cocking' of the arm can be slow. If you back-cast with the same energy as on the fore-cast, with the same hard stop, and your casting plane is between 10:00 and 1:00 then your back-cast WILL be 'upeth'. And you will have provided enough energy to the line that you will feel the rod load on the back-cast which will trigger the fore-cast.
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I always "quarter" my self so I can observe my back cast...so I know what tree my fly lands in....heh heh
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Han's is correct. To answer fishin fool's original post, you do NOT let the line completly straighten out behind you. Start the forwad cast as soon as your rod has finished unloading. (Remember your rod must ALLWAYS be in a constant state of loading and unloading.)If you wait until the line has straightened then your rod tip has lost it's load. When this happens the rod will return to it's natural shape(straight) and the tip will rise above the line causing a tailing loop. Now, when you try to start your forwoad cast with an unloaded rod you can also get "shock" exagerating the tailing loop.
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Ray,
Well said, ... that's how I got rid of my trailing loop http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif
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Christopher Chin
Jonquiere Quebec
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Not to be rude or put anybody down .. but after reading this post my mind wandered to an older crotchety feller I use to fish with when I was about 12 or so.. his words ring back loud and clear ...."shut up and fish already ".... Guess I never think about this stuff when im fishing ...but then again im not the greatest caster .. but I still have fun. Have a great day , think im going fishing tonight.
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Mike
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Mike,
Not taken as a put down either http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif
As I mentionned in an article, ... casting isn't really that important in most situations, ... FISHING is.
While I'm FISHING, ... if I start thinking about the casting I'm doing, ... usually I end up with a #8 Bomber in the back of my hat! (same thing if I think about the office, the bills, ... anything).
I guess that's one of the reasons we all love fly FISHING so much. We LOOK at the target and the fly just goes there. We look at the run and the line just mends like it should.
I love this sport !!
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Christopher Chin, Jonquiere Quebec
[This message has been edited by fcch (edited 09 July 2005).]
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Ray,
I'll have to disagree with you.
" Start the forwad cast as soon as your rod has finished unloading. (Remember your rod must ALLWAYS be in a constant state of loading and unloading.)
If I am carrying 60 feet or more of line into my backcast I will have to give the line time to (almost) straighten behind me after the stop of power application before I start the forward cast. During this time the rod will be either stationary or drifting to the rear with no load on the rod.
Most tailing loops are caused by too much power applied too soon.
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gathering form what Hans and Ray have said, maybe that is my problem, then. Maybe I wait too long to start the forward cast and the "shock" is what is causing me to lose distance and accuracy.
Mike, I do go fishing and I do have fun, but when I am trying to correct something that is out of place or wrong, then I think about it, and I find that usually I have just as much fun and get just as much satisfaction once I have remedied the situation.
Tight lines
Jeff
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dead fish don't make reel music
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Hey Folks,
Regardless of whether you choose to
watch your backcast unroll, I think Jeff
asked a good question. Reading through
the responses, which one is right? They
are not all in agreement.
I know in his Intro to Flycasting,
Terry Gunn says "let the line extend fully
behind you on the backstroke and accelerate
into your forward stroke prior to the rod
unloading." Does the rod start unloading
prior to this point or does it stay loaded
until the line is fully extended? I believe
the latter based on my observations. It
seems to me that the rod is loaded with the
line fully extended, and that the momentum
of the backcast can and does continue to
load the rod after the line is extended.
I don't claim to be an expert on anything
but these are my observations, right or
wrong. Someone set me straight, please, and
give Jeff a concise answer that he can
repeat with confidence. Just stirring the
pot.*G* Warm regards, Jim
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Imagine we're false-casting... My suggestion would be to consider at which point in the forward cast you begin the next backcast- Has the line "unfurled" completely?, or is there still a little roll in the end as you begin to raise for the backcast? My line (but not my rod) is usually always completely flat out and loading the rod at the moment my arm begins to pull into the backcast. So, it should be the same in the back as it is in the front.
It might help if you hum a tune while you cast, casting to the steady rythm. For the musically challenged- beware!
Everyday low price... $.02
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Ok, after some thought here is what I have come up with. Often times when you make either a back or forward cast,if the line hasn't unrolled and you apply too much power you, or at least I, often will hear a snap or whip-like crack, which too my understanding is not good. I understand that you want your backcast to mirror your forward cast. I like the idea of humming a tune, but as you increase the line in the air this gets difficult. I think that the rod is still loaded while the line is straight out, at least for a time, obviously it will unload as the momentum of the line is diminished. So from the answers I have read here my assumption is this. Timining is critical, and one should begin either the forward or backcast when the line has gone straight, and yet not stopped moving. I guess I'll just have to sting up the rod and try a little of both to see what happens. I appreciate the responses. As far as line watching goes, I think it is a good thing, but getting the feel of a rod and line working together is a much more valuable thing, and will allow an angler to keep his eyes on the target and thus make adjustments at the last minute if need be.
Tight lines
Jeff
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dead fish don't make reel music
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Hi Jeff,
I'm inclined to agree with your last
posting. I'm also pretty sure you have a
future in politics.*G* Warm regards, Jim
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Jim,
lets hope not, I've never really taken much interest in politics, nor would I want to become the type of person that I believe many of our politicians are, not all but many.
Tight lines
Jeff
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dead fish don't make reel music
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In regard to all the books written, videos taped and demonstrations made by 'ex-purts', I offer this: That person is comfortable with the technique he/she is describing. So, regardless of whatever method or technique you use, you must be comfortable with however you cast. I cannot imagine spending a day on the water, being constantly and consciously concerned with the formality of the cast.
Talking river/stream fishing for trout now: It seems as if all themes started about casting deal with distance. In almost every case, Forget-About-It! You're not going to fish a #22 or smaller trico at 60 feet and have a good chance of setting the hook, let alone seeing your fly. Your not going to be able to backcast 30 feet with trees, bushes and overhangs 10 feet behind you. Your not going to be able to drop a beetle, hopper, inchworm, etc. under that low-lying tree 35 feet away with a normal cast. That nice cruising trout that just rose 30 feet away is not going to wait while you figure out how to manipulate 60+ feet of line you have out of the reel.
Practice? Of course, but do what is comfortable and works for you. If the trout is 60 feet away, try getting in a better position by stalking it. If you can't and the fish is too far away then dems da breaks.
Let me finish by describing a type of cast used by Lee Wulff. It's fully described and demonstrated in one of his videos. He has little room for a backcast and his arm motion is such that the line hardly goes behind him. However, he is still able to make 50-60 foot casts. This is certainly unorthodox, goes against all backcast theories and you probably won't see the type of cast he uses described anywhere but it worked for him and is very effective.
Here's a 'Castwell' type quote: "Get thee to a nunnery". I don't care if you get take a taxi, a bus, walk, hitch-hike, or take a train. Just get me there.
Allan
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Jim, I'm afraid I have to disagree. If you let your rod lose it's load the cast is ruined. Even with 60' of line in the air, a 60' cast will bend the rod much deeper and the added weight of the extra line will keep the rod loaded longer. If you try to cast 60' of line and allow the line to completely straighten out behind you and lose the load on your rod the cast is in trouble, odd's are gravity will take the line near or into the water behind you before you can get the rod to regain it's load on your forward cast.
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Right on Jim Cramer.
How can the rod be LOADED after the stop while the loop is unrolling in either cast??
Brian
[This message has been edited by bnwise (edited 11 July 2005).]
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If the line is still moving isn't it still doing some loading?
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Respect Your Elders!
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yes Duck, thats correct, as the line is moving through the backcast an un-looping the weight on the line and it's momentum continue to keep the load on the rod. If the rod loses it's load the cast is doomed.
Brian, if the weight of the line does not keep the rod loading you get slack and you will have a poor cast.
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MOturkE: I have to agree with humming a tune (as a former professional drummer I have little problem with timing), and would like to add that IMHO the tune HAS to be a waltz - 1.2.3.1.2.3 (power stroke on ?1?). Most pop tunes are in 2 or 4 and these won't do. Counts of 2 are what a spinning cast is like, and counts of 4 are either too long, or just not smooth enough. Try 'My Bonnie lies over the Ocean', 'Somewhere My Love', ?My, My, My, Delilah ? or something by Strauss. Of course with more line out the waltz has to be slower to allow for the longer unfurling. {This post is not a joke, try it.}
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Interesting banter going on here. Hope you don't mind if I add my meager thoughts on the issues here, and there are three (3) of them.
1. The time to begin the cast in the opposite direction is when the line to leader connection is at the bottom of the loop. Wait any longer and the line begins to fall since energy is lost. Begin any sooner and the line within the loop is slack and effectively shortens the caster's length of stroke through which he/she can apply power.
2. While we should not get into the rut of watching every backcast, it never hurts to see what's going on behind us. An occasional look back can be a good thing, if we know what to look for in a good backcast. I believe most distance casters look at the last backcast before presenting the fly.
3. Ray, might there be times that the rod is neither loading nor unloading? Think drift which begins at the rod straight position and is considered a repositioning move. This is movement of the rod when it is under no load. I know you've cast a broomstick. It neither loads nor unloads since it does not flex, yet, the line can be cast.
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I am a little confused here. When I complete the power application on the backcast the rod changes from being loaded, to being unloaded. The load had moved from the rod and is now in the line. The rod has propelled the line backward and has returned to rest in the 1:00 position. As the line unfurls the momentum of the line RELOADS the rod, this time in preparation for the forward cast. I feel it in my hand and this is the moment to initiate the forward cast. If I didn't wait for the line to unfurl and RELOAD the rod, I would be bringing the rod forward when the fly was still going backward and I would simply be collapsing (shortening) my loop (and the rod wouldn?t load again until I had brought my hand well in front of my face and straightened the line. I agree that if one feels the RELOADING of the rod and waits too long the line will collapse behind you, and one should anticipate this moment, but I think the use of the term 'load' here is being used in two ways which are being confused.
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...."You can make a cast any time the line is moving...let me say this again,You can make a cast any time the line is moving"
:"Lefty Kreh" (A Moderen approach to Fly casting)
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"I've often wondered why it is that so many anglers spend so much money on,and pay so much attention to.the details on the wrong end of the fly line.If they took as much care in selecting or tying their flies as they did in the selection of the reel and rod,They might be able to gain the real extra edge that makes it possible to fool a fish that has,in fact,seen it all before" A.K.Best
"Wish ya great fishing"
Bill
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Bill,
I know what Lefty means when he states that, and I agree with his intent, but as they say in the Netherlands the statement is also a bit "short around the corner".
Taking the statement very literally one could commence a backcast and halfway into it turn it into a forward cast. The line will be in motion throughout, but... hmmm... yes, it will be a cast of sorts, but whether it will be very effective, or indeed pleasing....
Here is my version: You can make a delivery cast as long as the line is moving, the casting arm/hand/rod are positioned and the initial section of line (the part nearest to rod tip) is back of the rod tip.
Much longer sentence than Lefty's, but then I guess I am just more longwinded.
(No smart Alec comments, please http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif)
Cheers,
Hans W
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[This message has been edited by Hans Weilenmann (edited 12 July 2005).]