Looks like Orvis came up with a real winner:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti ... 8/SPORTS01
But how high will prices go?
Randy Kadish
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Looks like Orvis came up with a real winner:
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti ... 8/SPORTS01
But how high will prices go?
Randy Kadish
Does it have any other features other than being light? He said the 9' 5wt weighed about 2 1/2 oz. I'm not sure what about means here, but I have a Winston BIIt 9' 5wt that weighs 2 5/8 oz.
So, there must be more than weight to draw customers to pay $755?
Barnum was right
Just another fly rod.
Really, how 'good' does it need to be?
Barnum wasn't just correct, he was prophetic.
Buddy
Wow,
You guys really know how to bust a guy's bubble. I was already preparing the wife for the outlay of cash. I thought if I bought a $770+ rod that I would have 20" trout jumping into my net on command. :D
Seriously, how much "better" can this rod be than my Scott G2 or Sage SLT? In fact, how much better is the Scott or Sage I have than a TFO or Cabela's house brand?
At some point, it just becomes bragging rights.
I play guitar and with guitars, once you get past a price point (about $2,000) there really is not much difference that the audience can hear or the musician can feel.
Jeff
Tough crowd! :shock: :lol:
Jeff,
I also wonder about the issue you raised.
Randy
Imagine the business dilemna a rod manufacturer would be in if it developed a rod so "perfect" that you'd never have to buy another one!
Bob
I think that happened about 10 years ago Bob 8)Quote:
Originally Posted by BSwan
I agree. I've got my quiver of XP's and I blithely march onward into next season, casting flaws and all.Quote:
Originally Posted by dudley
Bob
It's not much of a dilemma, because you would have to buy one for every situation, and their sales would go on forever. You need a rod for:Quote:
Originally Posted by BSwan
Lightwieght panfish situations...
Small streams...
Small streams with close canopy...
Medium streams for medium fish...
Medium streams for large fish...
Medium streams for large fish with close canopy overhead and non-stop wind in your face in high humidity conditions on overcast days with leaves in the water...
Large rivers requiring 70' casts to finicky trout using #32 flies on blustery day with the wind in your face and your wife screaming from the bank that she's cold, tired and ready to call the lawyer...
and on, and on, and on....
After all, you have to have a full quiver, not just one arrow! :lol:
Joe
How much are you willing to pay to lose 1/2 oz on a rod?
It's cheaper to exercise.
It is obvious, to me anyway, that the price of fly rods and; "Why manufactures charge now, what they do for them", is the same as the "Where does a 300 pound canary sleep?"......."Anywhere, it darn well WANTS TO,that's where!"
Because the "magical sales term", here is "FLY FISHERMAN" and everyone knows that; "If it's overly expensive, that's ALL that matters to the average fly fisherman, as far as justifying outrageous prices for ANY of our gear!
Merely look at the SUPER magical word.............. "BAMBOO"! Any junk/antique dealer, who can spell the word "fish", knows; if they find a piece of bamboo, fishing rod, even if it's not even good enough for a tomato steak, they can tack an outrageous price on it and SOME "FLYFISHERMAN'", WILL come along and pay their asking price for it!
Ask any worm can jockey, or spinner tosser, "Have you ever, even, TRIED fly fishing?" and 9 times to 10, they're going to answer you............... "Oh, yeah, ONCE! UNTIL, I found out HOW EXPENSIVE it is/was, to even get started!!"
Truthfully........... When was the last time, any one of us has picked up a copy of say; "Bucket Mouth Magazine" and seen even ONE advertisement for; "Spin Fishing For Big Bass In Topega"!!?? Or, "Helicopter Fishing In New Zealand, For Record Browns"!?.............. using Mepp Spinners and Texas Rigged, plastic worms??
"WE" are too elitist to "fish with bobbers", so we call tjem, "Strike Indicators". We fish with "artificial copies" of "natural baits", so we never use "plastic worms", we only use "San Juan Worms", made from $3.00 pipe cleaners. And, we justify the "not using a Roland Martin Plastic Worm", by wrapping plastic Larva Lace around a simple hook shank and give it a name that's only spoken of it in low, hushed, Latin terms!?!!
The new Helios fly rods sell for as much money as they do..................... because they CAN and every one knows, that the price will be met!!
BOTH, the Helios and a TFO, can and will, quite easily throw 30 to 35 feet of line with ease and accuracy. Unless, salt sight fishing, perhaps........ but, truthfully, how many trout or bass did you take, last season that required you to cast 80 to 90 feet, on each and every cast!?
Pete,Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramps
I think another good questin is how much difference does the extra 1/2oz make?
If the answer was that there was a huge difference and I would notice the 1/2oz and it would make me a far better fisherman, then the price difference would be justified.
I somehow doubt if a rod that is 1/2 oz lighter is going to make me a better fisherman.
Time on the water, practice and more time on the water and more practice are what's going to make a better fisherman.
I wish it were so easy that I could drop $800 at my local fly shop and be a better fisherman, but like anything else that is worth doing, it takes a lot of time and effort.
The good news about all of this is I cannot think of many things I'd rather spend time practicing than fishing (yes, there's always that but it is still fun to fish without a partner :D )
Jeff
It looks like it's worth it if you want an Orvis rod and you figure you'll live longer than 25 years.
You saw it right here and now folks; what a Lifetime Warranty really costs you!
Considering the FORMALLY top of the line, not much heavier Zero gravity is about $100 less with a 25 year warranty; I figure most of the $100 additional for the Helios covers the additional warranty over 25 years.
If Orvis really wanted to make money they should ONLY sell the Helios to fishermen over the age of 60!
As far as whether it's worth it...
...it's worth it to those that want it and the SKY is the limit for those that have it!
I don 't entirely disagree, but, as I've said here before, if you can cast 80' then you might be able to cast 40' when a good stiff wind is blowing in your face.Quote:
Originally Posted by flybinder
Bob
To be honest, I don't recall ever catching a fish over 60' away let alone over 90'. I will cast that far on the lawn and occassionally at the lake, but I don't really ever fish that far away. Never seen a need for it.Quote:
but, truthfully, how many trout or bass did you take, last season that required you to cast 80 to 90 feet, on each and every cast!?
Jeff
(getting up on the soap box):
I'm not willing to give ANY 'new' rod the benefit of the claim that it is 'better' or that it will 'cast farther'.
Just because it's 'new' or 'different' for some reason doesn't automatically mean that you or I can cast 'farther' with it.
I can cast 80 feet now, with a rod I already have.
I can cast 40 feet into a stiff breeze with a rod I currently own.
I've seen the video of a fellow (kind of well known around here) casting a fly line with a broomstick. I watched another casting instructor type casting a fly line with a piece of bamboo from someones yard with guides and a reel taped to it.
It's not the stick, it's the operator.
While I understand that rod manufacturers 'think' all this 'new and improved' stuff matters, it really doesn't make ANY difference out on the stream, river, or lake.
If you can cast, you can cast. You can't 'buy' casting proficiency, you have to 'learn' it.
If you can catch fish, you can catch fish. You can't buy the ability to catch more fish, you have to gain the experience by DOING it.
If you already have a fly rod, then spending that $800 on taking more time to actually FISH will do more for your fish catching abiltiy than any rod or other piece of gear will do.
If you need a new rod, buy one. But no fly rod available today is 'improved' enough to make someone who isn't a good caster into someone who is. No fly rod available today will make someone who has trouble catching fish into someone who doesn't.
It's not about the gear, it's about knowing 'how'.
(climbing down off thesoap box now).
Good Luck!
Buddy
Didn't I read somewhere that these first ones for $750+ was a limited thing. Maybe I just dreamed that :lol:
Anyway, I have one of the first T3's....Love it, then one of the first Trout Bums....Love it, then the Zero...Love it too. But I also have a LT and a BII and I love them.
It all depends on HOW IT FEELS TO YOU! and in my case, what mood I am in, he, he, he.
If that Winston feels so right then so be it and so on down the rod making line.
The Helios feels that good...to me.
Heck, I know people that still swear by their Wally World rod.
Buddy quote:If you need a new rod, buy one. But no fly rod available today is 'improved' enough to make someone who isn't a good caster into someone who is. No fly rod available today will make someone who has trouble catching fish into someone who doesn't.
I can't totally agree with this. I do agree that it is up to the person, but a good stick can and will make a difference. I have seen it and experienced it. I am not saying it has to be a high priced thing, but if it is just right it can make a difference. I started with a "POOL STICK" so to speak and now have progressed to the whippy feel and I will say my casting improved 100 percent.
Now, A good caster can cast anything, I will agree.
Here's the thing. I've never owned a rod I spent more than $200 on (fished a few, but never owned one). But, and this is a big one, I also sell rods for a living; and what I have noticed is a lot of people have to spend a bunch of money before they BELIEVE in the equipment they buy (we sell $400 baitcasters and $600 spinning reels, too, so it's not just us fly guys and gals). It's a proven fact that you will catch more fish with equipment you believe in than you will equipment you doubt, because you will fish more confidently and hence more effectively than otherwise. Rods are like money itself that way; it's only worth what it's worth because we believe it is. In the end it comes down to this-- what do you need to have in order to have an enjoyable trip? That answer will be slightly different for each of us, hence the presence of $50 rods, $5000 rods, and everything in between.
Marketing!!! Getting people to buy something they don't need with money they don't have!!
This is some great rod according to the article. It is lighter and it cast a fly!! What a product! The rods I currently have are only light and cast a fly. That's worth $755 right?
I guess if you can find people to pay for it at those prices, so be it. I agree with the P.T. Barnum comments.
Dr Bob :lol:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Widmaier
What would you rather they said...... In any job I have ever held, it was the best! You believe that and you can express that.
It is an AD, they are going to print THE BEST, it would be stupid not to. Plus all their ADS in the past have been true...to some, not all, but some and that is enough. One man's trash is anothers treasure so to speak.
WHAT THE HECK DID BARNUM SAY ANYWAY!? :lol:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffnles1
That was my point. It won't make a difference. The weight of the reel will have more of an impact than a 1/2 oz distributed throughout a rod.
Now if we're talking an old heavy 5 oz rod compared to the new Orvis? That you'd feel.
Well....after all the discussion, I wouldn't be caught dead with one at a Fish In :lol:
Speaking of overpriced Orvis rods.
http://www.orvis.com/store/product_choi ... t_id=12889[img][/img]
Well if the money does go for conservation, this is good.
I think the Trout Bum 4wt 4pc is the sweetest little rod since Bamboo. I do have the Far-n-fine old and new and I have the one ounce 4wt., but the TB is a GREAT rod. Now the fact that they have put Bling Bling on it and I love that reel seat, add to the the conservation thing, I don't see it as OVERPRICED. It is a collectors item, just like those commerative coins. To someone it will matter.
Pete, you suprise me with this overpriced out look. You, the one that went all the way with the boo and the silk and now a Winston?
I did score a great deal on a Tiborlight and I tell you, this on a Helios.......Heaven, I'm in Heaven 8)
Am I the only one here that sees just how great the US economy is, that a company can come out with a fishin' pole for almost $800, and know that there is a market out there for them? Just look around you on the highway and see the number of $50,000+ vehicles that are on the road. What about $100+ tennies for kids? They can't keep them in stock.
This is the greatest nation on the face of the planet, and there are enough people with either the cash or the credit line that allows them to have the very best (real or perceived) of everything there is. This is what fuels the economy...vanity, not necessity.
BTW, P.T. Barnum's quote is; "There's a sucker born every minute." I don't know if this necessarily applies here, but that's what was being alluded to.
He also said "Without promotion something terrible happens... Nothing!? This justifies the advertising manufacturers must do to get you to believe their claims.
If my casting was so bad that I thought I needed a new rod to improve (I only have 11 fly rods), I believe I would spend the money on visiting JC & LF and get me some one-on-one casting lessons and water time. I learned a couple of small tips from JC at the MI FI in July, and it made a world of difference in my casting. Interestingly, the tips applied to all 11 rods in my quiver. Go figure...
Joe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fly Goddess
Yes, but I buy used Joni. I pay mid price for a high end rod. Have you tried a BIIt? I find it very sweet. Soft tip and mid section with the boron butt seems to work at all distances. It's perfect for the Arkansas River type waters.
"It's perfect for the Arkansas River type waters".
Oh no!...you're not moving to Arkansas now are you ,Gramps.. :shock: :shock:
The Arkansas River starts in Colorado. It's a 5 minute walk from where I live. I have a 150 miles of it to fish in Co.Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksterman
Oh, crap! Now we'll have to study the nuances of the Arkansas River's width, slope, flow, etc. to determine if this rod will measure up to this new "standard." Does this mean it won't work on other types of waters, or just that it will perform inferior on non-Arkansa River type waters? Please clarify the uniqueness of said river as pertains to this rod. I'm sure others will be interested as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramps
Joe
To be honest. I wish it wasn't a rafting river. It's kind of a pain for the fisherman. However, it brings in money for the small town of Buena Vista, so no complaints.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Valencic
LOL. Did I step in do do with that comment? I guess what I meant was it's not a small stream rod like i've been fishing this past season. I've been using a 6'6" and a 7'6" rod for those. I decided next season I was going to switch to a little larger rivers. The 9' 5wt seemed like a good choice.
I plan on fishing besides the Ark. Frying Pan, Taylor, Roaring Fork, and So Platte. I put those waters in the same category that my rod will do well on.
Make any sense?
If not, i'm having a senior moment. :(
Yes, you stepped right in the middle of it with both feet. :lol: Gotcha!
Joe
:D The only reason to buy the latest, most expensive rod out there is because you can. I have finally figured out, after 30+ years, that money spent on lessons are dollars well spent. I purchased a Sage Z axis this year. I went up to Rusty Gates place on the AuSabel to try it out. The guide I was fishing with noticed the rod and asked to try it out. 3 False cast and he had 70 feet of line out. I just stood there with my mouth open. I could have handed him my TFO and I suspect he would have had the same results. That being said, I can't wait for all of the new rods to come out! My buddy wants to fish Alaska in 2008 and I know I have nothing good enough to take with me.
Their rods are made in the USQuote:
Almost everything that Orvis makes is made in china,
Jeff
My,My,My,
Its like the man once said"Much ado about nothing..." :lol: .
If I had the cash I would have all of the new and improved stuff going.
Why? 'Cause he who dies with the most toys WINS!!!
That being said my old Dad told me a long time ago when I was ogling an excessivly expensive target rifle at a match (Dad was a semi professional shooter) " Thats a darn fine rifle but the guy that owns it cant hit @#$% with or without it ".
That little conversation has stuck for forty years. You have to have the ability to use your equipment to its capability.
I have a lot of rods and none are worth any real money. I wouldnt sell one of them for the price of one of the new orvis rods ( and yes, like the rest of the fellows here I could easily write a cheque for one). All of them mean a little somthing to me.
There is the clunker no name that one of my daughters gave me as a birthday gift. The old wonder rod that came my way for Christmas ( I finally figured out how to make the darn thing go ofter thirty years of false starts with it). There is the 12 dollar Garcia (of all things) that a friend thought that I could use.
Got an Orvis traveler that my wife just knew that I had to have for a mortorcycle trip to Colorado. Went thrift store shopping and lucked into an early vintage Orvis graphite for 2 $ (man that thing is sooo smoooth and the way it lifts tthe line off the water is a pure joy).
Yeah, if I wanted one I could have it .No complaints from my wife , no real injury to the wallet ,no change in the way I live. I dont have that need that seems to prevail for even quiet one upmanship.
I cant drive a Ferrari the way its made to go.
I dont figure that I could cast one of the new Orvis rods the way Lefty K could either . 8)
Any way I look at it Im glad for what Ive got.
That's all that matters Perch.
Well Said.Quote:
Any way I look at it Im glad for what Ive got.
Jeff
Actually this is one of my my most favoritest fly fishing topics to discuss. My opinions are well documented in past posts. But to perhaps summarize, I'll buy one of these "new and improved" rods when "Helios freezes over". :) I have absolutely no need or desire for one.
Mark