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Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
What started with a question about why people flop fish on the stream bank to take their pictures has turned into a lively discussion about what fish can withstand, that this is a blood sport, that if stocked fish can survive the ride to the stream ? then they should survive the beating that they take at our hands once they are out of the water and dropped on the stream bank.
But stocked fish stay in the water the entire time they are sloshed around ? whether it?s in the truck or the bucket ? and when they are scooped up with a net ? it?s one that?s designed to do the least amount of damage to the fishes mucus membrane.
You can ask any fish biologist (not just the DNR guys) about the importance of fish maintaining the mucus membrane to help prevent infection.
Every see fish scrape themselves on the stream bottom against rocks? See those white spots on a trout? That?s fungus that has infected the fish. How? The mucus membrane was scraped off and made the fish susceptible.
But I know that really doesn?t bother some people. But whether or not you agree with that, I hope that there?s one thing that you will agree - it?s a matter of respect. Respect for our home waters and the fish within them.
If you respect the fish that you catch ? you will do everything you can to ensure its safe return to the water as soon as possible and with as little disruption as possible.
Here?s why I feel the way I do.
Up until the last year I called the Black Hills my home waters. They are special for several reasons - but one is above all others.
Trout are not native there?never have been. In the hundreds of square miles in the Black Hills , the streams that criss-cross the area hold some of the finest trout fishing around. And they are only in those waters because someone put them in there.
Up until the Didymo infestation there was some limited natural reproduction of German Browns in Rapid Creek ? but that has stopped. And at this point there is no confirmed natural reproduction of any trout in the Black Hills. I got this straight from the president of the Black Hills Flyfishing organization.
So if you catch a fish in the Black Hills ? it?s because someone put it in there, or that someone caught it before and released it to be caught again.
I?m now fishing new waters and these again hold fish that are only there because someone has put them in there. No natural reproduction. And I?ve seen enough dead trout downstream from the heavily fished areas to know that there IS mortality among catch and release fish.
I catch and release every fish I?m fortunate enough to catch. If I really want to eat fish ? I?ll go to the store and buy it. The reverse doesn?t work - I can?t buy the same frozen fish and put it in the stream.
I respect the fish that I catch and the waters I catch them in, so I take every precaution to make sure that every fish I catch is handled as gently as possible, is returned as quickly as possible back to the water to ensure its survival.
You can be sure that if I fish your home waters I will do the same and I only hope that you extend the same respect for my new home waters as well.
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
I agree with you 100%. I can also honestly say i've never taken a picture of fish I C&R. Why should I? I didn't catch it to show to someone else.
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramps
I agree with you 100%. I can also honestly say i've never taken a picture of fish I C&R. Why should I? I didn't catch it to show to someone else.
well said 8)
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
Pete - thanks for the comment...
I guess I try to be careful with the fish that I catch to ensure that someone else gets to enjoy the same thrill of a tight line that you just did by making sure that fish lives to fight another day.
And yes - there are some that say "It doesn't hurt the fish" to do this or do that - but the point is that it doesn't take any more time or effort to treat the fish carefully and gently and release it.
It's no hardship or extra work. It's just a matter of having a respect for the water and the fish within.
If you're lazy or don't care - then yeah - flop it around in the grass and the rocks and sticks and whatever else is in there. Maybe it'll take care of it's own release and flop it's way across the rocks and back to the stream.
But if you respect the fish you catch then you're probably smart enough to realize that we are stewards of the waters we fish and the creatures that live within. As fisherman we should all be conservationsists. We don't have to hug a tree, but we can and should protect and improve the waters we fish.
That means picking up the beer bottle or food wrapper someone tossed aside. That means picking up plastic in the water when we see it. And both those things take effort.
What DOESN'T take any extra effort is making sure we do everything to guarantee the fish we catch are handled gently and carefully and released as quickly as possible back to the water.
It's not a question of whether or not the fish can handle it.
IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
To be perfectly honest Jim. I'm content to not actually land the trout. I love the whole act of fly fishing, the setting, the stalk, the take, and the battle. If the trout escapes before coming to net. All the better for me.
If I get no takes it's fine too, because I still have the setting and stalk. More than enough fo me. Plus I have the bamboo doing it's dance, and the silk line singing it's song. What more can a man want? ;)
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
I have a number of questions about C&R. First off, I do mostly C&R, but not for any particular moral reason.
Jim says "I catch and release every fish I?m fortunate enough to catch. If I really want to eat fish ? I?ll go to the store and buy it." Ethically, whats the difference, wether you kill a fish or hire someone else to do so? [Jim this isn't meant as an attack on you, so don't feel that you must respond. Its a general question to many of us who act this way, including myself.]
In many areas, trout do not winter over. They are raised and stocked for fishermen's pleasure and to think that not taking it home will allow it to live a long life just isn't true. While it does give someone else a chance to catch that fish in the season it doesn't rise to the level of holy grail for me.
I like C&R, I generally practice it, but at times do not. Many friends of mine do not and thats perfectly okay so far as I am concerned.
As for photos, if I'm going to release a fish, I agree that it should be done fast and efficiently. Often taking photos of oneself make this not possible. Its keep it or release it but torturing it just isn't a whole lot of fun.
jed
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
I am a firm believer in slitting the throat so they bleed out making them taste better. Of course, a good head/foot stomping is always an option.
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
True. A good head stomping might do you some good.
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
Doesn't look like it helped you.
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
fellows,fellows,fellows. oh what a good LAUGH i had at your expense.
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
Hey Jed,
Thanks for the post back - and you raise some good points. And no - I understand it's not an attack on me - just healthy dialogue.
Here's my take on a couple of your points - would love to hear what you think in return...
As far as fish overwintering - in all the waters I've fished - the trout live and prosper year round, so where I fish it's not a concern. I have lived in areas where fish are stocked in the fall and it gets hot enough that the fish can't survive the summers. And yes - knowing the weather will kill them if the fishermen don't - it makes sense to catch and kill them quickly rather than let them die a slow death in hot and poorly oxygenated water.
As far as your question about whether or not it matters if we kill them or someone else kills them - I only eat farm raised salmon, so for that point - you're right - I'm eating a fish that someone else killed. No denying it.
And I recognize some folks gain a certain satisfaction in catching and eating. And at one time I used to understand that pull, but not so much anymore. For whatever reason it doesn't hold the same appeal to me.
But I guess for me - it's more a question of the fishery. If trout are naturally reproducing there, it's not as big of a deal that people catch and eat. Assuming that they leave enough mature fish in there, theres a reasonable chance the fish will help to repopulate the waters.
But if the only way that a fish gets in those waters is if we put them in there - then C&R if more important to preserve the fishery.
And sure, there will be someone who comes around thows more 6" fish in there every spring. But that only makes me appreciate the 16" fish more, knowing that they've survived this long.
But - back to one of my original points - the only waters I've known have never had a naturally reproducing trout population, so it only makes sense for me to C&R every fish as carefully as possible to make sure stands every chance to survive until the next WD40 comes along.
Again - thanks for the dialogue...
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Jim
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramps
To be perfectly honest Jim. I'm content to not actually land the trout. I love the whole act of fly fishing, the setting, the stalk, the take, and the battle. If the trout escapes before coming to net. All the better for me.
If I get no takes it's fine too, because I still have the setting and stalk. More than enough fo me. Plus I have the bamboo doing it's dance, and the silk line singing it's song. What more can a man want? ;)
that's the kind of attitude I love...
sure, I'm guilty of taking a photo or two every now and then...especially if it's an unusually beautiful fish.
but, I also love it when I catch a fish & play it only to have it come unbuttoned right at my feet. it just makes it easier not only in the fact that I don't have to handle it but the fact that it had enough energy to still throw the hook.
anyway, there's a couple more of my cents...
~Randy
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
i am also perfectly content witha fish coming unbuttoned a few feet before the bank. i just call it a quick release! :lol:
i actually like it better when that happens because i release every fish i catch and if i dont have to get my grubby hands near em' i think its better for them
so the more unbuttons i have at the bank the happier i am 8)
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Hiatt
Doesn't look like it helped you.
Nobodies been able to do it. Tell me how it feels? With your attitude. You must have experienced it many times.
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
"Gramps", you and your kind totally disgust me. Fishing is not a sport. Calling it a sport or treating it like a sport DEGRADES it. You belittle and degrade the fish by your cruelty towards them. It is an honorable thing to use them as food. But to use them as a sport is disgusting. Then you pump up your ego by pretending you are other than an insignificant blowhard. What an insignificant joke you are.
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
Yaaaaaawwwwwn! This is getting old, boys. This is a no-win thread, so get off your computers and go do some fishing before someone loses their temper and gets tossed off the board. Opinions are like fly rods....we all have one. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I remain,
Joseph the Meek? :shock:
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Hiatt
"Gramps", you and your kind totally disgust me. Fishing is not a sport. Calling it a sport or treating it like a sport DEGRADES it. You belittle and degrade the fish by your cruelty towards them. It is an honorable thing to use them as food. But to use them as a sport is disgusting. Then you pump up your ego by pretending you are other than an insignificant blowhard. What an insignificant joke you are.
Sure tough guy. Go beat up another fish. You're good for the sport. That's right! Sport! We're not caveman anymore foraging for food.
You're not as impressive as you think you are. I've been dealing with lightweights like you all my life.
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
So we have cavemen on one side and Gramps, Teddy Kennedy & Nanci Pelosi on the other. Gee, which side do I prefer?
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Hiatt
So we have cavemen on one side and Gramps, Teddy Kennedy & Nanci Pelosi on the other. Gee, which side do I prefer?
Listen, I don't care if you kill and eat your fish. You'll never find a post by me saying anything different. Killing fish for the sake of killing them I don't like.
However, your first post in this thread was made for reaction. That's trolling. I have a weak spot for reacting to trolls. If that was your goal? Nice going.
Now, lets drop this. It's going nowhere.
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
I have NO respect for C&R. It is not natural. Fishing should never be considered a sport. That lessens what is natural. Your antagonistic reply is wimpy. I have NO respect for you either. Grow up.
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
You having no respect for me bothers me how?
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
...."Gramps", you and your kind totally disgust me. Fishing is not a sport. Calling it a sport or treating it like a sport DEGRADES it. You belittle and degrade the fish by your cruelty towards them. It is an honorable thing to use them as food. But to use them as a sport is disgusting. Then you pump up your ego by pretending you are other than an insignificant blowhard. What an insignificant joke you are.
Pete, you got me to thinking....I once thought C&R was the only way to go but now it occurs to me that C&R kills more trout (or any species of fish sought) than killing the amount one would eat since limits have become so small. Is that your point? Because if it is I see it.
I mean a long day of C&R may result in say 100 trout (or other lesser species) being handled, traumatized or however you would call it whereas killing two or even one in some cases results in about 59 less deaths. Something to think about...my problem is I don't like trout as something to eat, only catching them....but...how many do I need to C&R before I've proved that I can do it....again, and again, ad infinitum...is that the right word? Thanks Pete, a provacative set of reasonings that reached me on a long since unrevisited level. I'm going to continue catch and release of course, but I may cut my hooks off at the bend so I don't stick 'em, just raise 'em...I know one thing, if I liked trout, I'd have eaten thousands of them by now !
Cheers,
MontanaMoose
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
Jim,
In reply to all of your points I have come up with an approach that works for me. First is that I do not generally take fish. I'm mostly a C&R guy because I like fish more alive than dead. Its great to touch one and then let it swim away, and to be able to be that close to something natural. This basically begs the question of when it is proper to keep or not.
Of the few times I do keep it is generally because I like the taste of fresh fish fed on real protein, not fish pellets. The farm raised fish often taste muddy for lack of a better description. So If I do take fish its usually in Maine on this place I know that has mostly fish that have wintered over if they are of a legal size. And this is only a few each year.
Another point you brought up is that you eat only farm raised Salmon. I have chosen to eat only wild Salmon. This is based on a long study that TU did about the effects of farm raised Salmon on the wild Salmon population. Eating only wild Salmon was their recommendation. You might want to look at their site to see if you can find that info. Its too involved for me to begin to get into on a post.
I think in the end, the real answer to the question is that if we all try to protect the fish we like to catch, be it by stocking, C&R, cleaning the shore lines and keeping them free of contaminants, educating others on how to treat the gifts of the river etc. then we will accomplish what we hope to accomplish. Cleaner waters, more fish in better habitat and fewer fish left lying on the banks or in trash cans on the highway.
One of the saddest fish related sites I've seen was a trash can on the side of the Cape Cod Canal filled with Striped bass, all too short to have been kept. First they never should have left the water, second if they were kept they should have been eaten. This served as a reminder to me of all we have to do.
jed
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
...well, this post went downhill in a hurry...
except for that last post, well said, Jed.
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
Now, Boys! Don't you suppose Gramps made that comment tongue-in-cheek? As I was reading Jims post, one of my first thoughts was, "OMG! What would Jim think of some of the old red necks in SMo stomping on the heads of trouts, and ripping out the hooks, only to kick the fish back into the water again?!?" :shock:
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
Betty,
Everyone knows that you don't have to stomp down on the heads of fish to get them to hold still while you remove a hook. That thing went out with the fins on the back of cars.
Thats what cleats are for, so we can gently stand on the fish and pin that puppy in place. :shock:
jed
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
Just to clarify, my eye rolling wasn't for betty (or jed)!
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
One of the more disgusting sights (other than one of Gramps posts) is being downriver from any park on the Deschutes River. The volumes of dead, "released" fish floating by is not an enjoyable sight. Think about it. Fishing is the one sport where torture is allowed. Now some cultures allow cock fighting, dog fighting, bull fighting, or partial birth abortion; but most societies consider these morally objectionable. Fishing for "sport" is allowed.
Now pest species are allowed to be killed like mosquitos, ticks, rats, coyotes, but even these are often illegal if you simply torture them instead of making a humane kill. But fish don't get the same luck. Maybe because the state makes money off of it. Most states don't allow gambling, unless they run it and profit from it.
Now if your waters are too poluted to eat the fish, you don't have to fish. You could simply go hiking or golfing. Golf balls don't feel the torture.
I like fishing, but I eat what I catch. I like hunting, but unless I am ridding society of pests, I eat what I kill.
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
Hey Jed,
Thanks for the note back - all good points - even the one about "cleats" :)
Excellent point about farm raised versus wild run...and you're absolutely right about the effects of salmon farms on the wild population and I'll look for wild caught now when I want to eat fish.
I really didn't intend this post to become one about whether or not keeping fish is right or wrong - I agree that we all need to have an approach that works for us. Back when I was younger I used to catch and eat fish every once in a while, but that changed when I realized that the waters I fished in didn't have any naturally producing fish stock.
Going back and reading my earlier post - I guess it's easy to see how it might have come off as an indictment against keeping fish. Let me emphasize that I wasn't trying to pass judgement - only express my preference for C&R in the waters I fish, the reason I do so, and most importantly the importance of being careful with the fish we return.
As I said before - I C&R because it's important for me to do what I can to preserve the fishery I call home. And I try to do so being as careful as I can with those fish, and that's what I was hoping to communicate to others. If you're not going to keep the fish - then it doesn't take any more effort to pinch down the barb of your hook, be gentle when handling it and let them revive a little in the net pointed upstream before turning them loose.
And we definitely agree that preserving our fishery is more than C&R or not - it's so much more than that if our ultimate goal is to have "cleaner waters, more fish in habitat and fewer fish lying on the banks or in trash cans". It comes back to having respect for our waters and the fish within and doing everything we can to improve it.
Thanks for the discussion - hopefully we can share a stream sometime - it would be an honor.
Jim
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmadsen
I only eat farm raised salmon, so for that point - you're right - I'm eating a fish that someone else killed. No denying it.
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Jim
Hello Jim
I encourage you to make the switch from farm raised fish to wild caught fish for a few important reasons:
- Fish farms are responsible for significant pollution
- Fish farms have caused significant health issues with local wild populations of fish as parasites thrive in and around the pen raised fish and then spread to the wild fish.
- Fish that escape from the pens (which is significant) do great harm to the local fishes genetic pool when they mix with wild fish and introduce inferior genes.
A while back the push was on to only eat farm raised fish but in recent years it has been proven over and over again that farm raised fish are bad for the environment and that wild caught fish are a much better option. This is mainly regarding Salmon and Steelhead.
Thanks for listening : )
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
Hey Jeff,
Thanks for the note - Jed made that same point in his follow-up post and I completely agree.
Jim
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
There is a bad vibe going around the (fly)fishing website world right now and I am sick of it.
I hate the taste of fish, and I hate fish. That is why I continue to torture them every time I am out.
Marty
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
i alos hate the taste of fish! and i will continue to RELEASE/TORTURE every fish i catch on every outing i go on :shock: 8)
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
Quote:
I catch and release every fish I?m fortunate enough to catch. If I really want to eat fish ? I?ll go to the store and buy it. The reverse doesn?t work - I can?t buy the same frozen fish and put it in the stream.
I respect the fish that I catch and the waters I catch them in, so I take every precaution to make sure that every fish I catch is handled as gently as possible, is returned as quickly as possible back to the water to ensure its survival.
You can be sure that if I fish your home waters I will do the same and I only hope that you extend the same respect for my new home waters as well.
The issue I see is that you cannot fully respect the fish by practicing C&R. That's because you cannot ensure its survival by C&R. To respect the fish and ensure its survival is to not jeopardize it in the first place. C&R does place a fish in jeopardy.
Don't get me wrong. I do understand what you are trying to say and that is, you want to do the best you can to have the fish survive so that others can enjoy the same thrill of the catch.
I think C&R is a viable alternative to catch and eat, but it is not perfect. With so many people wanting to fish, something needed to be done to allow them the opportunity. If we had stayed the course with catch and eat, fishing would be decided by a lottery and I fear that fishing would fade away for all but a few lucky winners.
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
Some fish should be released, and some shouldn't. It's up to you to know the difference.
Of course you could always bash them all in the head and not worry about it. :roll:
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
"Of course you could always bash them all in the head and not worry about it. "
Grumps, do you mean the fish or the fishermen?
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Hiatt
"Of course you could always bash them all in the head and not worry about it. "
Grumps, do you mean the fish or the fishermen?
In your case?
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
Will you two please keep it going, your digs at each other have given me a good laugh, no one could say you do not use humour to deadly effect :lol: .
All the best.
Mike
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Re: Photographs of fish laid on the bank - Part II
What does Mike know? He can't even spell "humor". As for Grumps, he sounds so elderly. Last year he was a newby and now he is the board expert on fishing with cane...although he doesn't own one. Hmmm.