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OK....you have a fly in hand and don't know its hook size.....you are new and can't instinctively match the fly to your tippet/leader, but if you knew its hook size, you could. There is a formula for measuring the gap and determining hook size. I saw it once and don't remember it. I've done searches everywhere with no luck.
Any help?
Regards,
Tom
What? No one knows what the formula is? :shock:Quote:
Originally Posted by thomas28
I guess knowing hook size isn't as important as I thought. :)
Regards,
Tom C.
Tom,
There are several ways to approach the answer to your question; this is my response?that doesn?t mean it?s the only response.
Choose your tippet to fit the conditions you are fishing under, each day/location/weather condition/fly pattern will be different. If the conditions do not allow your tippet to turn over correctly (for the type of cast you are making) change the tippet size. It does not depend strictly on the size of the fly pattern you are using. You may have a #16 XS Variant pattern, which will behave very differently than a #16 3XL pattern?hook gape alone is not the factor that will determine your tippet size. Then there are water conditions, dry or wet, wind or not, distance cast?there are numerous factors than will influence your tippet. My advice ? choose a brand you have confidence in, buy several spools in various diameters to suit the type of fishing you do most often, change to match the conditions you face. You don't need a formula.
Best of Luck,
John
The answer is that there is no formula. Hook sizes vary by manufacturer and by style within a manufacturer. Typically a hook that is 2X short will have a gap 2 sizes wider than a standard length hook. However most manufacturers do not produce hooks proportionally correct so comparisons are tough. When on the stream I don't go by hook size, I go by the size of the offering I'm looking to fish with.
Short answer is that there is no standardization for hooks and likely never will be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Fish
Ok, I can understand your point. But three things...I know I read about a formula somewhere.......I also look at fly selections and they all are 'numbered' for hook size.....I also read in 'how to' books about selecting certain hook sizes for certain fish.
And you tell me that there IS no standardization so size comparisons between manufacturers are basically meaningless. So I buy a #10 fly from brand x and the 'same' #10 fly from brand y and I can expect the actual gap and overall hook size to be very different.
So I guess the way everyone does it is to look at a fly and think "Hmmm, that looks about right for what I hope to catch." Would you say that is correct?
Regards,
Tom C.
thomas28,
If you are buying flies, then a size 12 Adams from Flyshop A will be pretty close to the same as a size 12 Adams from Flyshop B.
The problem lies with hooks that have longer or shorter shanks than "standard" (and i use that term loosely). For example a size 12 Bead Head Prince Nymph is going to be larger (longer) than your size 12 Adams due to the hook type used for most beadhead patterns.
This formula that you speak of sounds intriguing, i have never seen it or heard about it before so i am not much help there. Chances are if it did exist then Dr. Fish would know about it given his position at Mustad.
Hope this helped you out some.
Thomas28,
Would you be thinking about old idea of dividing the hook size by '3' to get an appoximation of the the tippet to use? That may not be the best approach with more modern synthetics.
John
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie Caddick
Yes, that helps, and so did Dr. Fish's answer. Oh, the formula I saw only was for the gap, which was supposed to relate to the #size of the fly. And it may be that different manufacturers use different formulas. I know Dr. Fish said there is no formula, but I think he mean't no universal formula, since each manufacturer does list size numbers, that means they must use a formula, even if it's useful for only their flies.
Anyhow, I suspect as I gain experience, trying to pay strict attention to size numbers will become not so important.
Regards,
Tom C.
Each mfr has their standards to hook sizing. My point is that there is absolutely no standardization among all the hook companies out there. That being said you will find some similarities as most don't make hooks, they simply are the distributor and buy their hooks from the same Asian suppliers as many other brands.
I have no doubt that there may be a formula out there that will get you close but there are many variables. Hook length, tying length, wire diameter and hook gap will vary from hook model to hook model. Since no company out there (other than the Mustad Signature series) produces proportionally correct hooks you can measure the above hook attributes within a model number from a mfr and you'll see that nothing is consistant.. If they are not consistant within their own single model number you can bet they will vary from model to model and mfr to mfr. That was my point. You can of course look at a catalog and use that to roughly estimate hook size across the board and will likely be close most of the time.
When you walk into a shop and buy a size 12 Adams it should be pretty much the same sized FLY from one shop to another but the hook details will vary slightly.
Thomas28:
Two suggestions:
First, read this article:
http://www.flyanglersonline.com/flytyin ... etype.html
It MAY help you with your hook selection in regards to type of fly.
Second:
Ask Dr. Fish to get you a Mustad Catalog. In it there are graphics of the various hooks Mustad makes. SOME are printed in ACTUAL size. Find a generic hook type like 3906B for nymphs and 94840 for dries; photocopy the page, cut out the graphic, laminate it and keep it in your fly box or pocket.
It won't be perfect but it will be a LOT closer than a formula that may or may not exist.
Good luck and have fun!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamboozle
Actually ALL of the hooks are shown in our catalog in actual size and you can also print out actual size images from the website. The catalog is a very useful tool and I'd be happy to send one.
Thanks, everyone, for the useful information and suggestions. Dr. Fish, I appreciate your catalog offer, but as you say, I could get prints off Mustad's web site.
Regards,
Tom C.
The rule of thumb formula you are asking for is devide the hook size by 3. So a size 16 adams would be 16/3 approx a 5x tippet. Now you can go up or down 1x as needed from there. A size 12 hendrickson would use 4x, a 12 varient, heavily hackled fly or nymph you might have to use 3x. But you may want to use 5x on a 12 no hackle dun. On dry flies it the hackle your sizing not the hook. To light a tippet will twist because of the the size or how heavily the fly is hackled.
As for knowing your hook sizes I would suggest that until you are experienced to know them by sight try carrying a fly tyers hackle gauge. Most not only let you size up your hook but you can measure the fly's hackle which is more important for tippet size. I used the Griffin brand which is now permantly attached to my travel vise.
Tom
What I find particularly confusing (and perhaps someone can explain), are hooks that are described as X-wide and X-short. I've seen this on some emerger hooks like TIEMCO 2488. I always thought a #12 X-short and a #14 X-wide were the same -- ie, #14 shank length with a #12 gap -- but now I'm not so sure.
In any case, when I'm on the stream I catch a natural and select a fly with the same body length as the natural. A small plastic metric ruler in my pack is useful for this and gives me size reference for future tying.
I copied and pasted from the link below. see bold font for maybe what you are looking for. you can measure a few hooks and let us know if the statement is true
"Perhaps a few definitions are order before we go further. Hooks are defined
in terms of their gap (or gape), their length, and the shape of the hook
bend. The hook size is the width of the gap. This is the distance from the
shank of the hook to the point. The length of the shank of a standard hook
is 1 1/2 times the gap. The shape of the hook is defined by the bend. They
carry names such as sproat, aberdeen, perfect, etc. You have to memorize
the names.
There are two other descriptors - the diameter of the wire and whether the
hook is shorter or longer than the "standard" length. These descriptors are
directly related to the wire diameter, length and size of the mythical
standard hook series. If the diameter of the hook is thinner, it is is
noted by an "X-Fine or X-Light"; if it is thicker, it is noted by a
"X-Heavy or X-Strong". Similarly, the length of the hook is described a
"X-Long" or "X-Short". These designations are related to the other hooks in
the standard series. For example a size 12 2X-Fine 2X-Long hook has the gap
of the standard size 12 hook but is made from the wire of a size 14 hook (2
sizes lighter wire) and has the shank length of a size 10 hook (2 sizes
longer hook). Confused? Don't worry, the patterns will tell you what hooks
to use. In general the X-fine hooks are used for dry flies and the X-heavy
for nymphs. The X-Short are used for small flies and the X-Long for
streamers, grasshoppers, etc.
Having said that, I must warn you that there is no "standard" between
manufacturers for sizing hooks (gap size). The gap measurement in
millimeters of a size 12 hook from one manufacturer will be different than
that from another. "
http://www.uky.edu/~agrdanny/flyfish/faq/faq-2.htm
Normand,Quote:
Originally Posted by Normand
Thanks for the info and web site. This is the most complete description I've seen so far....except for one thing....the hook size would not be the direct measurement of the gap, otherwise a #20 hook would be wider than a #10 hook. The relationship needs to be an inverse one, so the larger the gap, the smaller the hook size.
Dr. Fish also strongly stated that there was no standard between manufacturers.
Thanks again,
Tom C.