http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... fish19.xml
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main ... inion.html
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... fish19.xml
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main ... inion.html
Notice the Google ads next to the opinion piece.
I quote from the article...
Like the masked "animal rights" activists who terrorise scientists and their families, these thugs are sociopaths: not animal-lovers, but people-haters
Sums it up for me.
Hey Folks,
Am I reading this right? Masked thugs armed with clubs destroy property
and assault law abiding citizens. Police are on the scene in numbers but
do not make any arrests? Something is amiss here! Either with the
reporting or with the enforcement issues. If that happened on my home
waters and the authorities were on scene, there would not only be some
arrests, but in all probability some necessary stops at medical facilities
on the way to the jailhouse.*G* Warm regards, Jim
I find it funny how brave people become when they know that others are unarmed. I do not think that would ever happen here in Montana most folks here own a firearm of some kind. And I should add that most are not afraid to use it if push comes to shove. Like it did there. Nice to know we have the right to bear arms and to protect ourselves. Unlike those over there. Ron
Wow... being a Texan raised hunter/fisher, I can't even imagine this.
Get a rope...
For those of us in the more sedate areas of the country this may be the best reason to carry pepper spray.
jed
Ron took the words right out of my mouth. It is amazing what peaple will do when they know that you cannot be armed. Another good reason to practice your constitutional rights. Having seen the affects first hand of pepper spray on a person :wink: , it would seem to be the ideal solution to a problem of that nature. Well, that combined with effective law enforcement that would lock up lunatics like that. I dont think something like that would happen here, but then again, it probably will and someone will get hurt or worse.
Have fun, Jeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonMT
It's funny, but according to the article, these wackos' first target was going to be bird hunters, who were presumably armed with shotguns. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if 30 masked thugs armed with bats and clubs attacked shotgun wielding hunters.
I wonder how a masked wacko fights on the end of my 8 wt with a heavy Clouser Minnow securely set? Maybe a baitcaster can be a good thing. Very strange those sorts.
In all probability, such incidents will just increase over time. I think that
what is important is that we, as citizens and taxpayers, ensure that the
authorities enforce applicable law. If these miscreants wish to change
things, then they need to do it in the courts or with thier votes. Taking
up clubs and assaulting and encroaching upon the rights of law abiding
citizens is criminal. Plain and simple. It needs to be treated as such and
pursued to the extent of the law. My $.02. Warm regards, Jim
For fishers, the take-home message in all this is to stand up to animal rights extemism when other, legitimate animal-use groups eg hunters, are being attacked by the extremists. Sitting back and thinking;"Well, they aren't hurting me, so I won't take a stand" just doesn't cut it. The quote, "The future is already here; it's just not evenly distributed" comes to mind. We should expect that our future is Britain's present and act accordingly when we encounter any AR campaign that offends or intrudes upon legitimate animal uses...TIM
I have never carried a gun while fishing.
Perhaps if this started happening around me I would.
Then again maybe they are right, maybe we should all stop fishing!
Take up hunting fools, there appears to be an abundance.
A new invention for the entrepreneur out there. Pepper spay with indelible ink!
It would certainly make it easier to spot these people in a crowd.
The irony is that as these insane sorts terrorize innocent, law-abiding citizens the companies are pulling up and moving their research to China where there are no animal rights and no controls at all over the research.
The normal folks lose jobs, the insanes lose any hope of controlling any real or imagined inproprieties in the field of animal research. Everybody loses (here anyways).
[url=http://www.classicalvalues.com/archives/003969.html:5e516]more here[/url:5e516]
The NRA is always looking for members...to keep our rights...OUR RIGHTs...This is just one of many reasons I carry...not just fishing either....Most of the time....2 more pennies for the pot...You need not be a hunter, or even a fisherman... To be a member of a group that watches over our right to bear arms...
Keep in mind this is England, if you hit one of these bozos with your fly rod, a stick or stuffed some forceps up there nose you would be in prison and probably spend more time there than they did.
After all you are an upstanding citizen with all the social advantages the're under privledged hooligans. :cry:
England now has a higher crime rate in many citys than comprable sized citys in the USA.
Unfortunatly there are a lot of people in the USA who feel that this is the way we should be going. Vote for people with common sence.
Eric
It is a SHAME that we humans have 24 hrs to work with every day and some of us choose to belong to organizations that want to take people's rights and freedoms away.
In 35 yrs of walking and hiking, I have visited many graveyards and read some head stones. I have often thought that I would like respectful words on mine, like LOVING FATHER.
Some of these people deserve to have HERE LIES A IDIOT.
Doug :(
Hmmm,
While I am quite incensed about those idiots and there actions I find some of the responses a bit over the top. Quite franlkly I would prefer to be in the right, have my rod broken and even be pushed around a little to the alternative proposed, which would be having to live with the fact that I shot someone.
I do make the assumption that if you have a gun and are proposing using it in a situation like this then you are willing to shoot it at someone.
jed
Jim I have to say I agree with your first post on this subject. Medical attention would be required by some. Several years ago I read an article about a hunting guide in Montana who was flying some of his clients up to a camp. When he tried to take off at the airport a group of anti's tried to stop the hunters. One of the anti's threw a cresent wrench thru a window on the plane. The pilot turned the plane around got out and severely injured his hand on the protesters face. Western justice.
Rocky
Jed,
How about if the proposed alternative was to pound the pi$$ out of these idiots? Would you then agree. I ,for one, can't even imagine a scenario in which I would submit to ANY of the situations you suggested . Maybe I wouldn't shoot but be dam*ed sure, they'd know they shouldn't have violated my territory or screwed with my " stuff".
Mark
The problem is that, you don't know that you are just going to have your rod broken and be pushed around or if they are going to beat you. If you are attacked by masked thugs wielding baseball bats (which are considered "deadly weapons" by the laws of most states) it's possible that you could be seriously and permanently injured or even killed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed
Maybe they don't intend to physically harm you, but given the circumstances, it's difficult to ascertain their intentions. Certainly, they don't need bats if all they want to do is break your fishing rod. I think it would be reasonable to assume that they are carrying bats to hit people with.
Bottom line is these guys are morons. There are lots of non-violent ways to get their message across. If they choose violence, it really wouldn't be surprising if things escalate to a level of violence that is beyond what they intended. If it happened here in the US, I'm pretty sure some of these thugs would end up getting shot (and I can't say I'd feel too bad about that.)
The terrorists kind of remind me of those mexican fishermen who were lost in the ocean for nine months, because their lost and sadly many of them will never be saved.
What a terrible weight that would be on my shoulders, if my son's goal in life was to hurt people.
Would it be my fault or do we all have a choice wether we want to be a leader or a follower?
That is what is great about this BB. Flyfishers seem to be leaders and I believe that is a key element to being happy.
Some of the luckiest people in history didn't follow a PERSON, they followed their dreams.
Doug
I'm sure glad I'm an American, despite all the complaining I do about our current adminstration. I'm in a rural area, though our county includes a large city. In my dealings with our county Sheriffs over the years, I'm fully confident that local law enforcement would fully and completely back up any citizen that defended themselves against the 'anti' fishing and hunting wackos. And the laws against disrupting a hunt or interfereing with fishing are clearly stated in the Div. of Wildlife regs here, not to mention those laws about assault.
Don?t get me wrong, I am a city boy. Born and bred in the suburbs of the greatest capital city in the world :twisted: . My parents though, came from the country, the wilds of north east Scotland and the coast of north west Wales. As such they had a great appreciation for the countryside and made sure that I got as much exposure as possible in my youth.
These idiots are urbanites who are ignorant of what it is to pursue activities in anything approaching nature. They were brought up, hanging outside burger bars, or corner shops, intimidating those they perceived as potential victims. Now in the twenties and early thirties, they justify their thuggery in the fervour of some misguided beliefs. This has been further fuelled by ten years of a socialist government who have an urban agenda, a government who have banned hunting, despite the fact that all polls leading to the legislation indicated that the majority of people did not oppose hunting (actually they just did not care). They did this because they had an overwhelming parliamentary majority and voting members who preside over inner city constituents; who as youth protested against anything that it was fashionable to protest against. They were communist, left wing extremists, there are pictures of Charles Clarke the previous Home Secretary standing as a long haired bearded young man next to Castro, this was the man responsible for the Police, Education, Health, etc. Now late middle aged none of this fanaticism has dissipated; it is just well wrapped in a tailored suit and well coached political spin. This government have a programme for destroying rural life through building low cost housing in rural area, where more of their inner city voters can migrate to, playing with and changing the political map and removing the last outposts of centre right voters in the country. There are policies in place wrappered in the tinsel of social justice which says that the true victims of crime are the criminals, because somehow society has failed them. That those how have been assaulted, robbed and wronged are not really the victims, just a statistic, to be categorised in such a way as to keep the growth in crime figures a nice attractive gradient on the graph, rather than the dramatic wall they are.
So what will this assault on people quietly fishing achieve? Well these 30 or so people must have something legitimate to complain about, so perhaps we should stop and listen to these poor victims. We need to hear and understand their grievances and then do something to stop them from being victimised.
I'm sorry but I have NO, ZERO compassion for people that want to use violence and destructive behavior for their cause! Whatever that cause is. I saw the ads PETA was running about the Hook hurting the fish! Some of these people won't be satisfied till we are all easting grass as our main source of nutrition. Then some group will form and start protesting that saying the grass has feelings. These people are simply not normal. They are lacking something and in need of attention. IDIOTS is what they are. I understand some animals are treated cruel and we need to be understanding of some things but some of these people go to extreme measures and can't be reasoned with!
Hunting armed may not be a bad idea...
Bet those Brits wish they had the Second Ammendment!
I posted the same source before I read this here, sorry.
Britain has a higher crime rate than the USA. Here, crime goes down when cealed weapons laws are passed. Over there they call us "cowboys". Over here, we call them victims. Sad state of affairs.
I found it rather interesting that the people fishing have to come up with their own contingency plans...doesn't that strike anyone a little odd? Are there no rangers, police or officials to oversee anything? If I saw a gang of hooligans carrying around baseball bats at my favorite fishing hole or even walking down the street...does everybody think they're going to play baseball?
So not only do they have to pay for a fishing liscense, but apparently they have to bring their own body guards to protect themselves from thugs. It seems they're more interested in upholding some extremist freedom of expression/speech than protecting from bodily injury productive members of soceity out enjoying themselves.
Our societies are truely screwed up.
-Pemi
Violence begets Violence, And put in a situation where an attacker is wielding a bat,Billy club,knife,screw driver,Gun or what have you...I'd certainly would like to be in a position where I could defend myself to the fullest extent needed.....Having a gun on your person in no way means you are going to. Or, Have to use it for more than shear shock value...as I'd have to think most assailants would back off well before it would come to having to make Full use of the firearm....Just My Thoughts...
let them eat cake. The jerks.
I do not carry a gun or any type weapon, but if I EVER see a male (note that I did NOT say man) strike a woman with a club, he WILL get hurt. Cowardice, pure & simple. Cowardly gang violence...I'll bet not ONE of them would have the guts to stand alone & act the way they did as a gang. That would require comittment & a spine.
The upside is that they are just flushing their own credibility right down the toilet.
Mike
If Bruce Lee was still alive, I would like him to do a movie about some sportsmen that hire a martial arts expert to deal with eco terrorists.
Then Chuck Norris could do a sequel!!! :lol:
Doug
Eric - its 'sense.' Not sence. I am an American living in the UK - its more than just 'England' by the way - and I can tell you that this is an extreme case, but not that far fetched. And it could happen in the US. Clearly these are maniacs who aren't afraid of people with weapons - thats why they went after the shotgunners first!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-WD
I think in this case that the police would have turned a blind eye to any personal defense. They don't like the *nti's any better than we do. On our UK fly forums, we have taken to spelling *nti's this way - so that the b*stards can't claim publicity off of this stuff.
Mike
Thank you Mike N.
I personally think the baseball bat weilders are scum and hope they get everything they deserve but I did rather object to the very uninformed negative comments on my country. Also JME seems to have an agenda of his own, to which he is entitled.
This is not the place for it. Just think, what would you say if an American made remarks about members of your government on a foreign web-site.
I may even agree with some of his comments but not here.
When I was a child, some time ago, I was taught that family arguments are kept within the family.
At the very least this should have been on 'Sound Off'.
When your argument is weak go after the spelling.Quote:
Eric - its 'sense.' Not sence. I am an American living in the UK - its more than just 'England' by the way - and I can tell you that this is an extreme case, but not that far fetched. And it could happen in the US. Clearly these are maniacs who aren't afraid of people with weapons - thats why they went after the shotgunners first!
My point was If the laws in the UK were such that a person with a shotgun could shoot a thug with a baseball bat and not be prosicuted for it then they wouldn't be going after the shotgunners.
I also have lived in the UK and know that it is not only England.
Eco-Terrorists are Eco-Terrorists, there they go after fishiermen with bats, here they burn suvs in the middle of the night, why don't they attack fishermen here? Could it be beceause they might be shot.
Eric
PS if my spelling offends you don't read my posts.
I would hope that everyone is forgiving and understanding when someone doesn't spell a word correctly. I for one have a fair ability to figure out what the author of the wrongly spelled word means to say. So even though I am picky about MY
Spelling, I don't expect others to be perfect.
Being a perfectionist as a person is a lost cause.
For example; If eco-terrorists attacked flyfishers in Montana, then I am afraid they wouldn't have their bats for very long.
You just try to vote for the right government and we will do the same.
Doug
I was just pointing out how ironic it is that someone who is talking about common 'sense' doesn't seem to know how to spell part of the phrase.
No matter where you are in the US - Montana or New York City - If you shoot someone and kill them, the state will bring charges of manslaughter (or worse) and you will be facing major prison time and huge legal bills. You are only allowed to use 'reasonable force' to defend yourself.
Mike
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike N
In the United States, deadly force is legal under many circumstances.
Those circumstances vary depending on the state. Where I live (Colorado) I can legally use deadly force if I am threatened with death or serious bodily harm. If I am in my home, I can legally use deadly force if I am threatened with any harm (even non-serious harm.)
In most states (including Colorado), a baseball bat is considered a "deadly weapon," so if you are being attacked by people wielding baseball bats, you are entitled to shoot and kill your assailants.
Being from Colorado myself, I am familiar with the 'make my day law.'
However, I think a recent case in Aurora for instance, shows that you should use extreme discretion in taking advantage of it. Ok, the guy got off, but I bet his legal bills are in the 10's of thousands. Its very hard to prove that A) you believed that you were in danger for your life and B) that deadly force was the only option.
Anyways, this thread has gone well off topic. probably partly my fault. :oops:
Mike
You clearly don't understand Colorado law.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike N
You don't need to prove "that deadly force was the only option." All you need to prove is that you had a reasonable belief that you were threatened with death or serious bodily injury (unless you were in your home, in which case you only have to show that you were threatened with any injury.)
Some states require you to show that deadly force was the only option. Colorado (thankfully) isn't one of those states.
This is getting ridiculous. I take your point Kai - I was misinformed over the law. I lived in Co most of my life, and I didn't hear about it too often. That's precisely because its not a law that (most) people WANT to take advantage of. And I guarantee you that if more people did, it would be repealed really quickly.
But what are we really arguing over here in terms of fishing? The Lancanshire case was an extreme example. There aren't roving gangs of peasants with pitchforks and torches seeking to burn flyfisherpersons.
Even if there were, there are probably better and safer ways to handle them than by picking up a pitchfork yourself.
Mike