Almost Philosophical

I hope tis makes for an interesting discussion... :roll:

Very frequently when discussing ways of doing things it is said in some way or another...." well the fish don't seem to care".

I will submit that maybe they do...e.g.

On a day when they didn't bite at all if you had used the best technique, fly, whatever...maybe you would have caught some fish...

Or say you caught fish but if you had done something different maybe you would have caught say 10% more...

or maybe you would have fooled an older larger fish :D

Just a little example that we have been talking about...suppose you knowingly use material on a woolly bugger that doesn't give as much motion as another material that you could have used....sure it will catch fish but who is to say you wouldn't have done better

And yes I know it isn't always about doing better but why not do the best you can? ...at least without being obsessive 8)

Duckster,

I'm up for a discussion. I too believe "it matters" to the fish. I believe fish can be caught on any day. The key is to finding the pattern. That pattern can be found but sometimes you need more than 24 hours in a day to find it.

This is one reason I have so much respect for the Bass Pros. There careers rest on being able to establish a pattern in a short period of time and under any conditions.

I do not know if all species of fish react the same as bass, but they can be enticed into striking because they are predatory, not always hungry.

Fishing under that much intensity was what led me to fly fishing. I laid down the bait casters and the spinning reels for awhile to learn what I perceived as a more relaxed way of fishing. I don't get the bites I am used to getting but I am learning. This is a whole new way of fishing for me. I believe I could achieve the same level of fishing I had been at, and with a fly rod given I have the time left.

I do believe it does matter to the fish. Sometimes we hit the pattern more quickly than we do at other times. I think it's just being able to put all of the signs together.

Hi,
I've often wondered how much fly choice matters. So, for the last while, I've been doing some rather casual experiments. For example, one day my wife and I were fishing a nice large section of river together. Neither of us were having much luck. I tied on a size 12 Greenwell's Glory wet fly, and on the first drift I saw a fish take a dart at it. On the 2nd cast, the same fish grabbed it and it was my first for the day. Shortly after, I hooked into another one. So, I went up to Vanessa and gave her one and told her if she continued to have no luck with the nymph to switch to the Greenwell's.

She did, and she started hooking up.

That made we wonder if any wet fly would work. So, I switched to a blue dun wet, and not a touch. Switched to a blue winged olive wet, nothing, back to the Greenwell's, and sure enough, another fish on the first drift. So, it appeared the "bite" had not stopped, I was just not using the right fly. Vanessa also had some luck with a Royal Coachman wetl. It was tied with a tail made from yellow fibers rather than pheasant tippets. I also hooked up a few with a Parmachene Belle. We found sizes 12 and 14 of these patterns both tended to work well. In other words, we had lots of luck with size 12 and 14 wet flies, provided they contained at least some yellow. We've called that pool "yellow pool" ever since.

On another trip, I found that when the fish were readily taking a size 14 deer hair caddis dry, they would also take a size 12 Invicta wet fly, but not a Professor dry or a Tup's Indespensible dry. And, on the day they started to refuse the caddis dry, they also didn't touch the Invicta but grabbed a pheasant tail wet fly (like a pheasant tail nymph in the body, but also add on brown mottled turkey wings wet fly style and a brown fiber throat) and a Tup's Indespensible Dry. On this trip I could see caddis, mayflies, and the odd stonefly, midges, and butterflies, so it appeared the fish were keyed in on caddis for the first while and switched to mayflies later. I found that drifting some soft hackle spiders in grey and olive worked recieved strikes and/or hook ups on all days as well. In the early morning, when it was still rather cool, I was getting hits mostly on size 12 Doc Spratleys, but the fish lost interest in these as the day wore on. I didn't switch flies enough to figure out if there was another good fly to go with the DS though.

Finally, a friend of my dad's has used a hatch midge pupae pattern I like (which I got from a book) and one day he got 10 brookies and another day he got 27 while fishing some still waters. Also, nobody else even got a touch. Was that that "only" midge pupae pattern that would have worked? I doubt it, but of course, that experiment wasn't done.

In other words, I think fly choice can make a difference, but I think the important thing is to get into the right 'set', rather than think there is only one pattern for the day. But that's simply because I've yet to see a time when only one pattern "works". That's why I think there may be patterns that work well as a "set", like the caddis dries and the invicta, and there may be times when it's a particular colour (like our day at yellow pool).

Although I've heard of people (i.e. my dad's friend) who have had great success with one pattern on a particular day, rarely do I hear of people experimenting and trying other flies when things are hot. If it's not broke, don't fix it. But, I can guarentee that the only fly you have any chance of getting a strike with is the one you tie to the end of your leader. If you only ever tie on one particular fly, it will catch the most fish for you.

- Jeff

Jeff, What you bring up is a discussion on it's own but what I'm trying to get at is a little different.

Let's say you tie with brand x hackle because it's cheap and though it is agreed it's not of the quality of brand A....it's said ..."the fish don't care"....IMHO that's a rationalization that I think we use a lot of times...as when I use a part of a feather that doesn't give as good a motion... when I want maximum motion...just to use up the feather......and speaking as someone who only ties for himself and not all that many....if I'm going to go to the effort I ought to make that fly as fishable as I can.

Now I don't always do that...still have materials I bought early and some leave something to be desired... I just accept that the fish might prefer the same fly tied "better"....I'm just trying to not kid myself.

it only matters....when it matters

Hi Ducksterman,

Ahh, gotcha! So we're talking two flies of the same pattern, but does the quality of materials used matter?

I think for dry flies, yes. If you use cheep hackle, you will not get a fly that floats properly, if at all.

For other styles of flies, I've not found as much of a difference in the fish catching ability. I do know that I often find it harder to tie a fly with cheeper materials, or with left over off cuts, as the proportions are harder to get right. To save myself the frustration, I usually find that the "off cuts" are only "off cuts" if I try and use them certain ways. I'll save the cut bits from palmered hackles to strip later when I need fibres for tails or throats, for example. And by doing this, I've been able to tie much better looking flies (better looking to me, whether or not the fish appreciate my efforts is another question; your question in fact!) I know the improved "self evaluation" means I will fish that fly with more confidence, and I'm more prone to tie it on to my leader.

And, if I fish a fly more often and with more confidence, it will catch more fish. Maybe the thing to do to answer such a question is to fish two flies as a team; one "good" and one "cheepy". Swap between positions after every fish (to make sure they don't always go for the point fly, or the dropper, etc), and see if one fly or the other catches more fish.

- Jeff

And I think, "the fish don't care" statement as it was used here on these BBs ,was exclusively directed at the price/quality of the equipment OTHER than the thinggy at the end of the tippet , the fly. BUT,even there, the synthetic " cheap" materials sometimes make a good case for themselves ,IMHO.

Mark

Marco...I don't think cheap necessarily relates to "quality" as we are using it here...e.g craft store stuff often costs less but often does a better job ....believe me that's where I come from...

and..."was exclusively directed at the price/quality of the equipment OTHER than the thinggy at the end of the tippet ".....
sorry ,I can't agree with that...I can give you an example recently of the statement about the thinggy...but I won't because it's got nothing to do with the guy that said it....I've thought it myself but really I don't think that rationalization is being intellectually honest...we just don't know if we had done it a different way would ..."the fish have cared".

Jeff..." I've not found as much of a difference in the fish catching ability."

There in is my point.....HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT???????

Hi,

Ah, how do I know? That's true, it's always possible that on any particular cast had I used a different version of the same fly (one with a different quality of material) that the result of that cast would have been different; I would have caught a fish when I did not, or I would have failed to catch the fish I did.

However, the same could be said if I cast to a slightly differnet location. Had I cast this fly there, I might have caught/not caught a fish.

I'm basing my opinion on the fact that I've tied flies with cheep and with higher quality materials and, apart from my dry flies, I've not noticed my catch rate go up. I still have and use some of my flies tied with cheep (low quality) materials and I still catch fish with them. However, I found all my dries that used low quality hackle do not float, and do not get strikes, while the ones tied with more expensive and better hackles, do float, and I've caught some fish with them.

So, either I'm consistently luckier when I use the cheep flies, which presumably shouldn't catch as many fish as I do, or I'm consistently more unlucky when using the higher quality flies and should catch even more fish, a combination of both of those, or the quality of the materials does not influence the catch rate provided the flies are tied to proper proportions.

I tend to interpret my personal experience in that last way. It seems to me that I catch as many fish with flies tied with my older, lower quality materials, as with those tied with my better stuff (I'm trying to use up all my lower quality materials because I find I catch just as many trees with both sets of flies as well!)

But I agree with you. I can't know for sure that there is no difference in the mind of the fish.

- Jeff

Good points ,Jeff...there's probably no for sure answer to what I ask...and I thank you for answering and stimulating my thought processes :D 8)

ducksterman ....... it's Friday - and I really don't need this - but ya got me thinking. ...........

Doesn it matter - yes ......... and no .............. well, , , maybe ..........

A pooly tied fly may catch some fish.
A better tied fly may catch more fish.
Doesn't necessarily mean a perfectly tied fly catches even more fish than that.
On the other hand, my son had a brookie take his hook (about a size 10) that was wormed up - but the w fell off - so all there was was the hook.

Does it matter .............. yes, no, maybe :?

Can fish be caught at all times - definately, yes.
but
At times it matters whether its 2, 3, 4, or 5 turns of hackle - sometimes - not.
Sometimes it matters whether its pink, sometimes it needs to be salmon.
Sometimes you need size 22, not the 20 or 24 you have (and at those sizes - how the heck the can tell is beyond me).
Does it matter, in the stained water you're fishing, if you use a matuka or zonker, wooly bugger, or rabbit strip leech. .......... sometimes.
Does it matter, in the clear water, if you use a PMD or White Wulff. .......... sometimes.

Why ............. I really have no bleedin idea - - - I must now fall on my childhood upbringing ............... because

(unfortunately, this all makes perfect sense to me now - in a couple weeks ..... who knows).

Now I must go give my head a pounding, 'cuz I think I really confused myself.

Oh - lookey that - comin up on lunch - time for 'za

I forgot to add in a couple favorite quotes that fit in here :

An angler must take the puzzle of the day?s conditions, and matching those conditions and his knowledge of the fish to come up with a good catch. He competes with a concept, not with a fish?s brain
Lee Wulff, 1981


Scholars have long known that fishing eventually turns men into philosophers. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to buy decent tackle on a philosopher's salary. Patrick F. McManus

:shock: :lol:

Ah, the beauty of a sport that makes us ponder these questions! I'm getting to the point that I can go out and watch others catch fish and enjoy that in itself. But just let a fish refuse a fly and it stirs something primal in me to get it to strike.... Then all the accumulated information, experience and theory of a lifetime of angling comes into play. (Maybe it's partly the image in my mind of being outwitted by a creature with a brain the size of a pea....) Maybe it doesn't matter to the fish, but what's important is - it matters to me.... Thanks for the post, Jim