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I say "differently", perhaps all have been tying off this way - I hadn't.
I now tie the hackling feather off on the base of the post, and do my whip finish on the base of the post instead of tying the hackling feather off at the eye of the hook.
I think it looks much neater this way as the eye of the hook is clean.
What do you think?
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/...h/IMG_2991.jpg
I like the look of yours, but when I do it, I must make too many wraps around the post, as my hackle gets forced up away from the thorax. How many wraps do you make?
I make about 5 wraps.
Hi Byron. I've been doing that for a lot of years, and to me, it's much easier and neater. Nice tie.
Bruce
Thats the way I have been doing it for at least 10 years. Do you turn the hook in the vice for this, or turn your wrist to make the whip finish horizontally?
Cheers,
A.
One other thing. The easy way to put head cement on that whip finish.
Once you have formed the whip finish, but before tightening it, pick up a tiny drop of head cement on your bodkin. Put your bodkin into the loop of the whip finish and draw tight around the bodkin. Now pull the bodkin out, leaving the head cement right on the whip finish.
Cheers,
A.
Byron,
I have been tying off on the post for many years. It makes for neater fly because it prevent trapping loose hackle at the eye of the hook. It also makes threading the fly easier.
I have several other comments on why I do this. One is the misconception that a parachute is a "dry" fly. Most fly fisher will say the parachute is the imitation of the subimago or dun and is a "dry" fly. I have posted before that it is not.
The hackle is above the body and the body rests in the film. Whether we call it a dry fly matters not. What matters is what the fish think it is, and I believe they think it is an emerger. As I posted before, Gary Borger places it in the same Transition Stage 3 as the Kinkhammer Special.
Consequently, whether the thread at the bottom lifts the hackle a bit makes no difference. The body of the fly is still in the film. If you tie the hackle off behind the hook eye, the body is still in the film!
What matters more is whether you tie the hackle with the convex side up or down. Examine a dry fly hackle feather. You will see that it has a natural curve to the fibers and it has a shiny side and a dull side. The shiny side is convex and the dull side is concave.
When you decide to tie a parachute, you must decide whether you will tie the hackle so that the the tips of the fibers curve down toward the water and extend below the body of the fly (the fly will ride higher and the fly is supported on the tips of the fibers), or whether you will tie the hackle so that the tips of the fibers curve up away from the water (the fly will ride low with the body in the water and the fly supported by the shafts of the fibers, tips curving up and away from the water).
If you want the fly to ride low in the water, tie the hackle so that you rotate the hackle around the post, shine side down and dull side up, tips of the fibers curving away from the water.
If you want the body to ride higher, tie the the hackle so that you will rotate it around the post, shiny side up and dull side down, tips of the fibers curving down below the body of the fly.
You must also decide how to tie off the hackle and this will also determine whether the fly rides lower or higher.
To make the fly ride lower, tie the hackle off at the bottom of the post, below the last wind of hackle. Because the post tie off raises the hackle, the body will sink further into the film.
To make the fly ride higher, wind the hackle as low on the post as you can and tie off behind the eye of the hook in traditional position. This lowers the hackle on the post and makes the body of the fly ride higher in the film.
By combining these two techniques you can rotate the hackle shiny side down and tie off on the post to get a fly that has its body lower in the film; or rotate the hackle shiny side up and tie off behind the eye to get a fly that rides higher in the film.
To optimize the higher riding fly, you need to use a hackle that is 2 sizes larger than the fly you are tying, eg, a size 14 length hackle to tie a size 16 fly. This will extend the tips of the hackle further below the body of the fly. Parachutes should be tied with longer hackle anyway but it is mandatory for the higher riding parachute tie.
As I said before, contrary to popular opinion, I believe a parachute mimics an emerger, rather than a dun. Charlie's Fly Box (http://www.charliesflyboxinc.com/fly...m?parentID=131) shows the method for a low riding parachute. Note how the body of the fly is well below the the hackle and would ride in or below the film when supported by the hackle. This is where the nymphal body of an emerger positions itself. On the final side view, I would use a much shorter post, since the the post mimics the body emerging from the nymphal husk. When this pattern gets wet or the tail fibers do not support the back of the fly, it acts even more like an emerger, with the body sinking well below the surface film. One can substitute zelon for the tail fibers to imitate the nymphal shuck just as the sparkle dun did for the comparadun.
Here's a tip for applying head cement when you tie off on the post. Most tyers would carefully try to place the tip of the dubbing needle right on the thread and let the head cement drip down the needle. You don't need to do that. Unless your head cement is extremely thick, you can touch the needle to the hackle fibers closest to the whip fishing and capillary action will pull the head cement down the hackle fibers to the post and into the thread wraps. If this doesn't happen, dilute the head cement.
I also have one other tip for tying down the hackle if you want to tie it in behind the hook eye.
Most fly tiers will make the final wrap of hackle around the post and then take the hackle to the front. Then they wrap the thread over the hackle to tie it in.
Try this instead. Take the tread to in front of the post and just in front of the dubbed thorax. It should be a couple of turns behind the eye to leave space for the whip finish. Let the bobbin hang down on the other side of the hook.
Now wrap the hackle down the post with your right hand, and for the final wrap, take the hackle under the bobbin and back over the hook. Now the hackle is under the thread and the weight of the bobbin will keep the hackle from unwinding!
Taking the hackle under the thread and bobbin keeps you from trapping the previously wrapped hackle fibers in the tie down.
Transfer the hackle from your right to your left hand and pull gently to snug it up under the thread. Now with your right hand put tension on the bobbin, and cinch down the hackle by wrapping it a couple of times. Cut off the hackle, pull back on the hackle and post to clear the tie down area and do a whip finish.
I was taught this method by Wisconsin fly tier, and fly shop owner, and guide Bill Sherer.
http://www.wetieit.com/
I have met Bill many times. Great guy. He came to all our annual conventions with his portable shop.
I doubt anyone would disagree that a parachute is not a dry fly imitating a sub-imago. If the parachute hackle is suspending the fly; and the fly body is beneath the parachute; the body is obviously at least partially submerged and taken probably as an emergent insect.
Unlike the caddis, however, the sub-imago duns ARE a big source of food for trout during a hatch. The fact that they have to float along while waiting for their wings to dry off in order to fly away makes them a good target for the fish and a good pattern for the fisher.
Uh, me, I think. The above sentence is a triple-negative, after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron haugh
Ian Moutter, who defintely has the street cred in England that Borger has here, argues that the parachute is more a true sub-imago than is the catskill. Moutter points out that a Catskill's hackle collar will push the bundled tail into the water where it represents the shuck of an emerging dun.
Because I believe the parachute represents a true adult, I am not a fan of tying off on the post. I tie the collar concave side down, and I don't want the hackle pushed up. Further, I have found (YMMV) that a tie-off on the the post is more likely to come apart than a tie off, behind the hook-eye.
One of my favorite patterns is a wonder-wing parachute. No way the split wonder wings imitate the body of a hatching bug.
Steven,
Thanks. IRPON
Byron
I have both of Ian Moutter's books. In Tying Flies The Paraloop Way, he has a photo on pg 59 of a paraloop and a traditional hackled dry fly illustrating what you say. The tail of the traditionally hackled fly is under water. The paraloop, like the parachute, has it's hackle above the fly body; and like the parachute, most of the body of the paraloop is under the film. To quote Moutter, "the paraloop sits in the water".Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven
The question then is whether this position of the paraloop/parachute fly looks more like an emerger or a fully formed adult?
Wow,
As long as the trout eats it, why does it matter what it 'thinks' it is? (I can't get my head around the trout 'thinking' at all.)
I can't even figure out why it matters what it looks like to us.
If it don't work, try a different fly? If it does....
Basics of dry fly selection:
Can I see it on the water is the first priority. Do the trout eat it is the second. There isn't an important third....
Guess it just gives folks something to postulate on.
Buddy
Buddy,
I guess this is why it matters, at least to me:
If you don't know what the trout are taking and the stage of insect they are taking, you don't know what artificial to present. And, you don't know what type of presentation to use. Sometimes you only get one chance to have that trout take your presentation. So, it gives you an advantage if you know just what to present and just how to present it.
A lot of trout will disappear if you are floating a number of "guesses" at him..............
Just my opinion though.
Here's my version of a similar fly in the paraloop style:
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/...h/IMG_2995.jpg
Here's the question, I would ask in return: While emerging, does the husk hang down in the water (a la a klinkhamer) or does it lie flat in the meniscus? If it lies flat, then the argument for a parachute acting as an emerger holds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Creek
Steven,
The widely famous and popular Sparkle Dun assumes is indeed a "TRAILING" shuck. Mathews and Jurack patterned it after the floating insects they saw still trying to escape their shucks.
What do you think?
Last summer I caught such an insect and photographed it. It's shuck was "trailing"
Byron
Honestly Steven, I think it can do both. I do know that I see a lot of discarded shucks in the film during hatches. You've probably seen them also. Some of the shucks probably sink as well. So I don't think is one or the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven
Here's a video of mayfly emergence. From the underwater camera view of the emergence in the window it is hard to tell whether the nymphal shuck is in the film or just under the film. It doesn't look like a Klinhammer to me though. The shuck looks more horizontal than vertical.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UjlT7fqJ1s
Got this photo off the web:
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/...ing-mayfly.jpg
Here's my Spring PMD #16 Paraloop:
Not quite the same insect, I think
http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/...h/IMG_3002.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Sanders
Buddy,
If a fish eats it that is all good; but the best fly fishers, in my view, have a methodology on how to choose the fly to use. When you say, "If it don't work, try a different fly", are we to assume that you do that randomly or is there some way of deciding what fly to choose? If there is a method, how do you chose? Or do you play the fly box lottery hoping to get lucky?
Fly fishing is not random. Fly choice is just like reading the water. I doubt you would recommend that the fly fisher cast randomly hoping that there is a fish in that inch deep water. That is like the the hunter shooting randomly in the woods hoping to hit a deer. I suspect you would recommend that a fly fisher not randomly choose what fly to use but that is what you seem to be implying we should do.
Can you not see that is exactly what your post is suggesting? As long as we can see the fly that should be the only criteria. I missed angler visibility of the fly fly listed under the size, shape, color and behavior criteria of matching the hatch. There are alternative ways of locating the fly.
The reason we are interested in why a fish takes a fly is that it also gives us information why a fish will not take a fly. What a fish thinks a fly represents is important in deciding what fly to use.
I don't fish Sparkle Duns, but my assumption would be that the fly doesn't ride horizontally but rather diagonally with the "shuck" and body hanging below the wing a la a klinkhamer. Your typical parachute doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron haugh
The point would be the position of the husk as the dun emerges. The YouTube isn't really clear, but the one thing I did notice is that one could see the body of at least one emerger reflected off the mirror ceiling. I think this would support my point but not in a definitive manner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Creek
I'm not sure it does Steven. I do tie my standard parachutes with the tail fibers either split tail or fan tail with a dubbing bump. However, many parachutes are tied with straight tail fibers without the broad support of a fan tail or split tail. A sparkle dun does have the zelon fibers splayed and my impression is that they are sufficient to support the back of the fly, especially in the smaller sized flies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven
http://www.charliesflyboxinc.com/fly...fm?parentID=46
The reason Hans van Klinken put no "shuck" on a Klinkhammer was that he wanted the back of the fly to penetrate the meniscus and sink rapidly without the supporting drag of a tail. That is also why the hook shank is at a downward angle and not parallel to the hackle.
In fact, Han van Klinken says that the support of the tail is not necessary to support a parachute; the hackle is sufficient. This quote is from The Hackle in the reference below: "A parachute fly floats in the surface mainly because of a perfect balanced and well-tied horizontal hackle. A tail can be helpful but isn?t really necessary."
Hans van Klinken specifically says you need 7 or 8 wraps of oversized quality hackle to support his fly and keep it from sinking. It is tied with more wraps than a standard parachute. We think of the parachute as a balancing act between tail fibers and parachute hackle, but in truth the Klinkhammer Special is more of a balancing act between the rear of the fly trying to sink the fly and the front of the fly trying to keep it up.
"I have seen stories with great pictures and many beautiful variations of the Klinkh?mer but not one of the flies I even would dare to suggest or advise people to use or try. I have some very strong arguments for these comments as well because a parachute hackle made from just two or three hackle windings simply will not work. Even a try will be already a catastrophe because a weak hackle like that never will be able to hold the heavy hook in the surface. If you read carefully then you will notice also that you need a long hackle as well. You have to be able to make a lot of turns. Depending about the size of the fly it can go up to seven or eight and even more.............. I have tied a whole bunch of Klinkh?mers especially with what seems an oversized hackle at first. I don?t know what it exactly imitates, it could be a spider but I can assure you that it works well. I don?t know why but when I am in a group and when we put flies together mine seems always bigger."
http://www.danica.com/flytier/hklink...er_special.htm
I do use sparkle duns AND comparaduns and parachutes. I even tie parachute with zelon tails. I suppose I can call them sparkle chutes.
I really have not noticed much different it the attitude of the fly when I fish them. I have not noticed that the wing is tilted back to indicate that the rear of the fly is sunken. It may be that there would be a discernible difference to a selective trout, but it certainly is not to the extent that a sparkle dun assumes the sunken position of a Klinkhammer Special.
Silver,
Post a pic of your parachute.
Thanks
I think this is tied on a Tiemco 921 2XS, 1XL hook. I took it years ago and it must be a small fly because it has a thread body.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...EC/Adams16.jpg
SC,
That was kind of long and I'm not sure who said what in your post, but I did seize on your comparison of a sparkle dun to a parachute. I don't think you can compare the two as the parachute hackle spreads in front, to the sides, and the back of the wing, whereas the wing of the sparkle dun, and therefore its support, is in-line at the front of the fly.
Whereas a parachute might float properly without a tail if the collar hackle is long enough, this most certainly would not be the case of a comparadun without a tail.
Thanks Silver, but I thought you did not tie with such long posts? For that hook, that is a TALL post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Creek
I agree it is long as are the tail fibers. I carry a pair of straight iris scissors with me if I want a shorter wing.
The points I was trying to make is that a parachute even with a zelon tail will float in the film and not angled like a Klinkhammer special.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven
My second point in posting a URL to Charlie Cravens sparkle dun is that the sparkle dun xelon tail fibers are splayed when tied in so they also provide support to the back of the fly.
My third point is that Hans van Klinken designed the Klinkhammer Special without a tail because any tail will help support the back of the fly.
My final impression was that in fishing fresh sparkle duns myself they do not seem to be angled down in as a Klinkhammer. I cannot say what they look close up or in rougher water. I also think that a fly that has been chewed and abused by a few fish floats lower than a fresh fly. So I think with sparkle duns the look of the fly is not static but changes over time.
The point I was trying to make is that a parachute without any tail will float in the film and not be angled like a klinkhamer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Creek
I didn't look at the Flybox site so can't say.
My argument about the tail on a klinhamer is that the tail will support the fly for a short while, but will become saturated and eventually sink. If any material will support the back end of a fly, why am I always searching for decent spade hackle?
I don't think you will find that the creator of the Sparkle Dun ever splays his zelon tail, nor do I.
The trailing shuck on an insect is not wide.
If you look at the photo of Charlie Craven's sparkle dun below, the zelon fibers naturally spread out when tied in. I believe they initially they fall on the water spread out and support the fly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron haugh
http://www.charliesflyboxinc.com/uploads/DSC05485.JPG
Although I use the image above as an example, I think if you search google images for sparkle dun, the tail is composed of spread out zelon.
http://www.google.com/search?client=...PObj0QHgxfWUAg
I've read only a couple of posts in this thread but if anyone has access to the book by Royce Dam(not sure if it's 1 or 2 m's), you should see how he tyes a parachute fly. He does the best job I've seen in the technique, neatness, durability, and finishing off of the fly.
Allan
[QUOTE=Silver Creek;451873]If you look at the photo of Charlie Craven's sparkle dun below, the zelon fibers naturally spread out when tied in. I believe they initially they fall on the water spread out and support the fly.
http://www.charliesflyboxinc.com/uploads/DSC05485.JPG
Although I use the image above as an example, I think if you search google images for sparkle dun, the tail is composed of spread
Silver,
I will stick with method of tying the Sparkle Dun that the inventer and promoter does it. You can watch his on utube as well.
But thanks anyway.
PS. The one you show does not appear to have a splayed zelon tail. There is no thread under the
Byron,
To view a good demo clip on tying off around the post, go to KWSU.org, click on "Fly Tying the Anglers Art."
click on season four and scroll down to episode 404 (Parachute Adams) The fly tyer is LeRoy Hyatt.
Works very good for me.
Crunchy
Crunchy,
That is how I tie parachutes off now. Funny, I started tying back in the early 70's. There were no videos, youtube, even books with much on fly tying except the old school patterns and styles. So, I sort of learned on my own and tied parachutes the way I figured out on my own. The natural way seemed to be to tie the hackling feather off at the eye.
Now, I like the method of tying off at the post. Keeps things "cleaner".