Knee deep in a Montana Cesspool

I thought one of this week's FAOL articles deserved some more advertising:

http://www.flyanglersonline.com/features/readerscast/

Thank you, and from a 'junior' member as well. I agree with you totally. :)

I read an article on the internet that said Montana is a big state with a sparse population. That fact seems to point to trouble with effective enforcement of drug makers camped on streams. Is there a problem with covering the state of Montana, pertaining to trash dumpers??
Are there any organizations that are dedicated to keeping the rivers free of trash?? I also read that recycling is more difficult in Montana?
Thanks,
Doug

That story is very disturbing and I would be ticked if I found that stuff on my little secret pristine Montana stream. However, please do not think that this is as widespread as Don's article implies. I have been way back on many high mountain Montana streams and thankfully I have never seen anything like this. Also, the trash problem on our major rivers is very low, at least on the rivers I have fished. Yes, there is the occasional trash (I picked up a few beer cans today), but please do not think that our rivers are flowing trash dumps. The sad thing is that all it takes is a few total jerks to ruin a place like Don's stream. I hope the meth heads who did that to your stream get caught and thrown in jail for poisining not just our wilderness, but our kids as well.

There is unfortunately a widespread problem with meth in Montana. Many of the rural areas in our country have been infested with this horrible and dispicable crap. The thought of putting a batch of chemicals in your body that was thrown together by some loser who could not pass a high school chemisrty class is beyound me.

In Montana we have an extremely low tolerance for trash. It is far more common to see Montanans picking up micro trash like cig butts and bottle caps than it is to see more visible trash laying around. One cig butt way in the back country is one too many.

This isn't unique to MT, you'll find it happening most anywhere.....here in the Ozarks the rivers are overrun with people that float, drink and smoke pot while on the stream. The Missouri water patrol trys to monitor this on the most heavily populated weekends but they can only cover so much territory. Why should we be surprised that this is happening? This goes on in the cities and rural parts of the country, I can't stand to fish some of the rivers during the summer, people are littering and smoking, dumping there beer cans in the water and theres no one to stop them.


Tim

I don't fish in Montana much, and only occasionally in Wyoming, but I was thinking about those places and the ones I fish here in Idaho while reading Don's article.

Couldn't think of a single place of the few I've seen in Montana and Wyoming or the many here that has any trash problem at all. In places where there are a lot of campers, you'll fine a few butts, or cans or plastic scraps, etc.

Flybop pointed out the meth problem in Montana. It is probably worse there than anywhere in this part of the region. And Montana is not just big, it is HUGE. Effective law enforcement against meth labs would be almost impossible.

Don's stream is a disgrace - but it is also, to my experience, a rare exception. We all need to do our part to keep it that way.

Having moved out to Montana from Boston, I was initially surprised to find the utter lack of trash in almost every place I went. I used to be the guy that would put his empty plastic cup into his empty food bag and throw it out the window as I went down the road (I know I know... Im sorry ok?) and now, having seen just how incredible it is when there is no trash, I am the guy that puts my cigarette butts in my pocket until I can throw then in a trash can and packs out empty beer cans that I find on the side of the river. heck, I was floating the yellowstone the other day and swam after a beer can that fell out of the cooler we were using to hold the empties rather than let it dirty the river.

I have seen quite a few beer cans in the rivers i fish (probably 20 cans in about a year of fishing 2-3 times a week on average). These are usually left by one or two bad people, but it really does only take one or two to make a bad impression. The meth issue is one that I feel pretty darn strongly about, so Im gonna let that dog lie for the moment.

Not unique to Montana is right...I'm amazed at the number of slobs we have here in NY. I fish a lot of areas that are fairly close....1-1/2 to 3 hrs....from New York City and I'm simply dumbfounded by the amount of trash I end up packing out with me. I always carry a large kitchen trash bag in a pocket of my vest, and more often than not, it ends up full when I leave the fishing area. I've never understood where the difficulty lies in packing out what you packed in. Is it really that much to ask? I'm headed up to the Adirondacks to fish the Ausable and a few more places this Saturday. I'll be gone for 9 days. Although the trash is nowhere near as bad up there as it is closer to NYC, there is still far too much as far as I'm concerned. Maybe it's the mindset of people or something. The closer I get to NYC, the filthier the areas are. Thanks for letting me vent.

Ken

When I see someone throwing trash on the river bank I tell them to pick it up, or I will call the game warden, it works. I also thank people I see picking up their trash.
My late wife would tell men and boys to pick up their trash, they may argue but they still picked it up.

This is my first post on the BB. Since I am the guy who wrote the "Knee Deep in a Montana Cesspool" article, I felt I should chime in too.

Contrary to what some would like to portray to potential "visitors" of our state, I would like to suggest litter and trash in our streams and on our public lands is a BIG AND WIDESPREAD problem. That should not discourage you from visiting what really is America's "Last Best Place". Besides, the fishing really can be as good as you have heard! It also is (trash or not) one of the most gorgeous places on the planet. I lived in Alaska for 15 years and have been in Montana for 12 years. In my mind, Montana truly is heaven on earth. Onward...

Is what I found in regards to used hypodermic needles and drug manufacturing items in the stream the exception? I imagine it is and sure as heck hope so. But as far as most folks are concerned; exception or not, it is flat unacceptable!

I found it interesting (if not coincidental) that 3 periodical magazines I just received over the past couple of weeks, also had articles about litter and garbage in their newest issues (American Angler, National Geographic, and TROUT). Thankfully, other people are seeing the problem around our great Country and writing about it as well.

As far as someone suggesting Montana does not have a widespread trash problem: Here is a personal 3 week perspective beyond what I already wrote about... I fished both the North and South Boulder Rivers, St. Regis River, Fish Creek & Ruby River (all within the past three weeks). One visit to each of these 5 streams resulted in at least one 30 gallon garbage bag full of garbage from each stream, picked up in no more than 1-2 miles of walking on each stream. You be the judge my friends: Is this a "trash problem" or not?

If you subscribe to TROUT magazine, I encourage you to check out the recent summer issue. Highlighted in that issue is the great work the members of the Joe Brooks TU chapter accomplished. Here is the jest of it: This past April on our Nations beloved Yellowstone River, the chapter banded together and filled up 30 drift boats (yes, thirty boats!) full of 11,000 pounds of garbage (yes, eleven thousand pounds!). If that amount of garbage on a "National Treasure of a river" is not a widespread trash problem, I'm not sure what is? My guess is, if you are lucky enough and are not finding much garbage on the rivers you fish, you were just the beneficiary of someone like this TU Chapter taking a stand and doing something about it. Kudos to them!

Thankfully, I still find relatively unpolluted places in our beautiful state. But, garbage and the despicable type of garbage problems such as I and others are writing about (and trying to fix), is growing with each passing year. If we just sugar coat the problem and say it is really not a big issue, it sure as heck is not going to get any better.

Am I a tad passionate about this problem? You bet! I'm sure you would be too if you stumbled upon what I did 3 weeks ago. My hope is more people will join in and say... "enough is enough!" Together, we can all make a difference on our streams, public lands and on behalf of Mother Nature.

Thanks for reading, thinking about it and responding.

Respectfully,

-Don


"I'm just telling it like it is" - the late, great... Howard Cosell

I also find this article disturbing. I also carry a trash bag, my way of recycling plastic grocery bags, a few in my vest and some always in the car, and pick up the trash at the parking lots and along the streams here in the Catskills. I have to admit to rarly finding drug paraphinalia. The boss is trying to find grommets at the craft store that won't rust so we can attach a canvas creel to my vest for trash pickup and my own trash from a day on the stream. What bothers me most is the fishing throw aways I find. Leaders, fly packages, those ziplock bags much of our small items come in. These items are from people who are supposed to know better.
I have to say though that if you do come across these people cooking drugs. Stay away!!
These groups wold more likely kill you than get caught. I work closely with the police in my job one of my duties is their dispatcher. Leave law enforcement to them. We neither have the training nor the tools to take even one of these people on. Note the area and make a call. Take a few pics if you can, don't be seen. But never,never ,never confront them. You don't want to be part of that trash.

Tom

Don -

First of all, welcome to the FAOL Bulletin Board, and greetings from SE Idaho.

Hope you become a regular here since you obviously have much to offer and started off on this site covering an important topic in an "archived" feature article.

I don't mean to be argumentative, just coming from a very different experience. Maybe the difference ( regarding trash generally; meth labs are a whole different problem ) lies, to some extent, in the popularity of the waters you are talking about and their proximity to pavement compared to places I spend a lot of my time.

I wonder if the above rings true as you reflect on your experience in the past in Alaska ?? Or even fifteen years ago in Montana ??

The people who visit "wilderness" areas that I was refering to generally have a healthy respect for it as it is and do not despoil it. They ain't perfect, but they tend to take care of a valuable resource in their own neighborhood.

To call the situation on your favorite stream a rare exception wasn't, based on my experience, an attempt to sugar coat a problem, ignore it, or simply hope it would go away. I am surprised, to some extent, that it is as widespread as you and others have found it, appalled, and at a personal level, delighted that it hasn't reached the places I am fortunate to spend a good part of my time.

Part of the reason I spend a fair amount of time writing fishing reports on such places is to call attention to them, as a way of helping protect them as they are, if and when they are threatened by development ( e.g. development of "energy" resources in the Wyoming Range ) or encroachment ( e.g. privatization of public lands or deeding them to the states, which in no way are in position to protect them ). The problems you and others are describing are a form of encroachment, to my way of thinking. Hopefully I am not inviting that result ?? May TU encroach upon my rights to a fishing license if I do !!

Having a different experience doesn't mean I don't share your passion to protect our resources, particularly the public lands of the West. Hopefully TU will continue to spend its time and resources where they are needed, and that they won't be needed in most of the neighborhood, just the places where the "bad apples" are mostly likely to spend their time.

John

I certainly applaud those who become involved, such as yourself in writing on an important subject, or the folks who carry a garbage bag, or approach others and ask them to respect our environment. We all do need to do what we can to make what happened on your favorite stream an exception, and generally minimize "trashing" public places.

After just completing a 2 week swing through Montana, Wyoming and Idaho, I have to say that I floated the Big Hole for two days, the Madison above Ennis for 2 days and 2 days on the SF Snake and I did not experience a trash problem. I also carry a garbage bag and never used it on this trip. I always watch for and pickup junk. I love these rivers as most do and can't pass up junk in or around the rivers.
Someone is doing a good job of keeping them clean.
Mike

John,

Here, here to all you and everyone else has had to say!

To answer your question: Yes, I think the more popular water ways and the closer streams are to pavement or population there is an increase in garbage (I.E. 11,000 lbs of trash taken out of the Yellowstone this year). Then again, I have been in downtown areas like the Deschutes River in Bend, OR that were spotless.

I agree with you, generally speaking the further "out there" we get, the less of the problem there usually is. The majority of people that make the effort to go out into the wild are there for a reason. Respect of those places seems to go hand in hand with the desire and effort required to visit them. It was mentioned, one cig butt in the wilderness is one too many. Agreed! Maybe I'm just unlucky and tend to find much more than cig butt's.

From my humble viewpoint, the garbage problem is growing and probably is in part a direct result of the population explosion on the planet. Let's face it, the rivers and woods are busier than they were 10-15-20 years ago. Nothing we can do about that. Really if you think about it, the more people who learn to love and cherish these places, the better it should be for us all. Hopefully, we can educate as many people as possible as to the problems and encourage everyone to be respectful of those places. Yes, the meth thing is a whole different animal and to be frank, just kind of jumped up and punched me in the face!

To respond to what you mentioned about not trying to be argumentative:
I do not think you or anyone that has posted is being argumentative. Certainly hope I did not come across that way. Passion can at times be mistaken for that. Guess it is better to be passionate about an important issue such as this than to not speak up.

Well, my wife and two dogs are hiking up into some high mountain lakes in the Tobacco Root Mountains tomorrow. The Cut's are getting mighty anxious this time of year. Hope to worry about when to change out a fly rather than who threw what on the ground or into the lake.

- Don

Thanks for the welcome. I hope to visit the BB and contribute more often as time allows. I've enjoyed reading and have found it is a great place for thoughts, info and ideas. Of course you all know that already!

Don, believe me I am on your side on this issue! I live, figuratively and literally, on the Yellowstone River in Paradise Valley. I have personally spent countless days cleaning up the streams that I grew up on back in Pa. and still always pick up trash that I see along the river. Just yesterday I found some beer cans that were shot up and just left there way back in along one of our mountain streams. I can not use the language here that I used to describe the people who left the cans there.
Liter has always been and always will be a problem. As a guide I have seen too many people who just think nothing of throwing down a cig butt, letting a candy wrapper flutter away, etc. Sadly, there are more and more "Montanans" that think nothing of leaving behind trash. A few years ago I cut a client's leader off when he repeatedly flicked his cigarette butts in the river. I told him as seriously as I could that if he did it again I would have the FWP waiting at the take-out to write him up for litering.
The sad truth is that whenever you have a resource like the Yellowstone river being used by so many people there will inevitably be some trash left behind, either purposely or accidentally. All of my friends and fellow guides that I know go out of our way whenever we are on the river (or anywhere else for that matter) to pick up trash. We live in far too beautiful a place to have any liter being tolerated.
The great thing about places like Montana is that there are still far more people like you Don that care so much and have a zero tolerence for liter. I really hope that things stay that way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ausable_ny

Not unique to Montana is right...I'm amazed at the number of slobs we have here in NY.

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Amen brother!!!

I think the biggest problem is the HUGE disconnect that people have about the environment. They don't seem to realize that WE are part of the natural world and that, as the planet goes, so do we. It's much more convenient to see it as something out side of us, rather than something we are a part of and completey dependant upon.

I don't know about meth cookers out in Montana but here in Kentucky, one is better off to avoid them. DO NOT walk into their camp. DO NOT ask what they are doing. Just disappear into the woods and call the police.

These guys WILL SHOOT YOU on sight. Especially if you're 7 miles back a dirt road and nobody is around, they will kill you and dump you in the woods and never have a second thought about it.

They ARE EVIL PEOPLE. The only thing they care about is the continuation of their business and will kill any unlucky fisherman who happens to stumble upon their factory.

Call the police but do not approach them under any circumstances. Their customers are also not very nice people.

Jeff