J C's "No Guarantee" article

I don't expect any rod company to replace a broken rod because of my fault/stupidity. I've had one graphite rod break because of a defect in the material. It looked like the material was "thinner' at the break or something like that. I asked if they would examine it and see if it was actually a "defect" and if it was my fault I'd be happy to pay for a new section. They promptly sent me an entire new rod; which I didn't expect at the time. I wrote and thanked them and said that it wan't necessary; but, they insisted. Two years ago I stupidly slammed a door on a tip section of another rod and again requested a new tip, which I would pay for; but, the company sent me a new rod. Now, don't get me wrong, I much appreciated the gestures; but, still don't feel like the company should replace any piece, let alone an entire rod, because I screwed up. If you drive your vehicle into a tree would you expect the car company to give you a new car; do the repairs for free, so, why should a rod company be any different? I realize this is opening the proverbial "can of worms;" but, when does personal responsibility factor into the equation? I obviously don't know anything about the reasons behind all these "lifetime" guarantees proffered by the various companies; but, maybe someone from one could enlighten this poor dumb innocent. Just my 1 cent or less worth.

Many years ago, my dad bought me a custom built 7' 4wt. It was made by a guy named Bo Cash back in NC on a lamiglass blank. Bo gave you one screw-up and if you made a mistake he would repair your rod. After that it was your nickle. Well I managed to break it by sticking the rod together at the ferule and couldn't seperate it (I slipped and fell). I took it back to Bo and he couldn't get it apart either (it was cool watching all of his tricks.) He advised me to send it back to Lamiglass where they could get it apart. (magically I guess) The lamiglass folks said that it would take 3-4 weeks to get everything done and turned around.

About a month later, I got a HUGE peice of PVC pipe from the UPS folks. Turns out when they went to ship my rod back to me, they messed up the shipping labels and sent me someone elses 12'surf rod. My rod went off to California. I called Lamiglass and they said sorry for the goof, they would track down my rod, and make everything right. The UPS guy picked up the surf rod the next day. About three weeks later I got a tube back from lamiglass. It was a empty 7' blank, a lamiglass catalog and a note from the customer service rep saying to call them ASAP. I called them and the said that the shop in Cali, never returned my rod and for the trouble I could order ANY BLANK in their catalog for my trouble. Within about 5 min's a 9' 4wt was on it's way. I called Bo and he said he would remake the 7' rod for free and charge me $75 (for parts) to make up the 9'. Bo lived one town over so I set up a time to bring everything over. About 2 weeks after the 9' blank showed up, I got a third tube from lamiglass. My original rod perferctly repaired ! I called the lamiglass CSR back and told her I would send back the 7' blank. I told her there was no way I could keep it. She would have nothing of it. After about 10 mins we agreed that I would donate it to my TU chapter for their annual silent auction.

So for my fubb, I got my orginal rod repaired, A 9' blank and a 7' blank. That's a good warranty. I used my 9' tonight, and it's my day in and day out rod for the middle and lower. I love my 7'er on small streams it's so quick, I can throw super tight loops under all sorts of obstrutions. I used to be the master of the "skip-cast", where your skip the fly up under tree limbs and the like mush like skipping a stone off the surface of a pond. Not too much use for it around here in UT....

But......

What if you happened to pay $40,000 for a car that costs $20,000 to build and put on a lot where it was sold for $40,000 with a replacement guarentee?

Same thing with a flyrod. The cost of replacement is figured into the price you pay for the rod. If you don't ever claim a replacement on the rod, it's just more profit for the rod company.

Not that there is anything wrong with that.....



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Ken

"The memory of a fisherman is more like fiction than journalism, that is, it doesn't ignore the facts, but it is not entirely bound by them, either."

John Gierach

if you paid insurance and drove your car into a tree, would you use the insurance to get it fixed?

Rather than paying a "we're assuming you're stupid and can't take care of your equipment" fee with the rod purchase for a built in replacement cost, I'd rather the rod companies give a small catalogue away with the rod detailing the cost of replacement sections for their rods (I'm assuming rods of different quality have different costs for one section of the rod, I could be wrong, but I doubt it).

This way, if the rod is broken because of poor quality control, they can feel free to do right by the customer, but if the customer was careless with their equipment, the company doesn't have to worry about a non-revenue generating portion of their business. Heck, they could even turn it into an area to make a small profit from.

I still don't see all these people that feel a sense of entitlement in the fly fishing world. The only reason warranty matters to most people making a purchase is that it makes them feel more secure in their (usually high dollar) purchase. However, I've always thought a lifetime warranty was excessive. I like the 2 year limited warranty offered by St. Croix on their premier series. If your rod breaks after 2 years of use, it's probably not faulty workmanship or materials.

As far as rods that DON'T have a warranty, I like the looks of the Okuma rods I've seen at Academy Sports and they're only $50. I also don't think I've ever heard anybody complain that their Pfleuger fly rod doesn't come with a warranty. Granted, those aren't top end fly rods that you will win a casting competition with, but we're talking about fishing, not casting.

One last thing. Didn't people just get their rod repaired rather than replaced before warranties came around? Seems like the people hurt most by warranties would be the local rod builders and repairers. Just my opinion. Thanks to JC for letting me express it here.

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"With luck, it can be like quitting drinking without entirely losing the sense of fun you learned while you were smashed." - John Gierach

Ken & Dave,

You mean that $40,000.00 vehicle only cost $20,000.00 to manufacture in the first place? Dang - I've been hoodwinked!

What if you had an option to purchase replacement insurance on a rod or not? Would that bring down the cost of today's rods?

With all due respect and in the spirit of friendly discussion, I still think JC starts off with an unprovable premise in order to support a position, i.e., that the majority of us are breaking rods stupidly and sending them in for warranty repair/replacement. While I don't deny that's happened, and maybe happened a lot, I don't know how it can be proven to be the major source of rod warranty claims.

Isn't it likely too that some rodmaker started the whole idea of a lifetime and/or no-fault warranty as a marketing gimmick, which was successful and the others followed suit because it worked as a sales tool. Blaming the ORIGIN of this on the consumer just doesn't ring. Some company somewhere had to start that ball rollling.

Lifetime no-fault warranties might indeed bring down the cost of rods if removed, but the likelihood of getting all manufacturers to do it is slim to none, and someone will always try for that competitive edge to sell more products. That's where it all started. It just doesn't make sense that rodmakers started offering these warranties due to customer complaints. It makes more sense that the number of rodmakers and the size of the market created the lifetime no-fault warranty situation when one company created it as a sales tool.

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[url=http://www.native-waters.com:ee380]http://www.native-waters.com[/url:ee380]

and as far as removing the warranty and bringing down costs to consumers, call me a cynic but that ain't gonna happen. you'll pay the same for the rod with no warrantee is the more likely scenario.

and grnmtnman--i didn't refer to the cost of the car--my question was if you crashed your car, and it was your fault, would you use your insurance to have it repaired?

[This message has been edited by D. Micus (edited 07 November 2005).]

jc assumes a lot. like we break rods at an astounding rate, we always ask the negative question, we slam rod companies at every chance. these are bad assumptions and are only made to prove his premise. i've only sent back 1 rod of the 30 plus i owe, for repair. and that was a spinning rod i owned when i was a kid, 35 yrs. ago. a garcia BTW, that they replaced for free.

By the same token, I've never sent a rod back for warranty claims, and I've broken only one. It was through stupidity and I paid for the repairs.

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[url=http://www.native-waters.com:56144]http://www.native-waters.com[/url:56144]

I still have the one rod I've used for 40 years and it is still unbroken. My new Gatti is also unbroken. I would rather have lower prices than unlimited guarantees, but they are handy if needed. It would be unthinkable to take some form of unethical advantage of this type of guarantee, but there are always some who would do it.

Its all basic business.
Choice 1. Rod cost + profit + marketing = sales cost

Choice 2. Rod cost + profit + marketing + cost of warranty repairs = sales cost

The cost to issue an insurance policy on rods is a calculatable expense and I assume that rod companies make a calculation and plug it into the cost structure when issuing a lifetime or extended warranty.

The reason that it has caught on is that people want it. If not, then declining sales on those rods would reflect the lack of desire.

I think that this type of warranty adds a level of complexity to the pricing equation, but "thats capitalism". The only other factor is lack of sales/profits from not selling additional rods. That too can be calculated now that there is some history behind the newer "no fault" warranties.

jed

I broke a Winston Ibis and knew it was my fault. I returned the rod with a confession of what I did and fully expected to pay for the new tip section. They repaired and returned it to me no-charge even after I offered to pay for it.

If I buy any product and am offered an extended warranty for $$, I always decline. In the fly rod world, we don't have that option. If they did offer it both ways, would you pick price or warranty?

Either way, A lifetime warranty seems excessive when the rods seem to get outdated quickly and are no longer be produced with the same materials.

As long as they offer the "no fault" clause, I think people can & will take advantage of the warranty.

Norman

i think the unconditional warranty has helped smaller companies compete. i don't think that redington, in the past, or tfo in the present would have ever gotten off of the ground without the warranty.

Why not claim for a rod breakage if it was your fault? afterall you are paying a sort of insurance with the higher price. If a company offers to replace an entire rod for ?20 (30+ dollars) do you think it costs them more than that to produce the rod in the first place?

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Born to fish, forced to work.

If you do the math it would cost the rod company huge amounts of revenue to offer rods with no warranties for reduced costs. Just to keep it simple say a co. can produce 1000 rods.
1000 x 500.00 = $500,000.00
1000 x $400.00 = $400,000.00
difference of $100,000.00
assume 5% return rate for breakage
1000 rods x 5%= 50 rods
50 rods x $300.00 cost = $15,000.00
net revenue loss of $85,000.00 on 1000 rods with no warranty. Company would need to sell 1250 rods @ $400.00 to make the same $500,000.00 revenue not counting extra cost of production and distribition. That is why in my opinoun that the companies offer the warranty.

JC's article opened up the other side of the problem for me . Lots of stuff I wouldn't otherwise have given a thought . Like how the Rod makers might feel about the situation . I have a better understanding now about the whole picture instead of just one side . Armed with this knowlege I have decided that I really don't know diddly squat about it .Therefore have decided that henceforth to quit complaining about something I know nothing about and just go fishing something I do know something about .
I dont always agree with Castwells articles but this one is a good one .

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I could be wrong , It seems unlikely , but I suppose it could happen.

"and grnmtnman--i didn't refer to the cost of the car--my question was if you crashed your car, and it was your fault, would you use your insurance to have it repaired?"

Dave,

Danged right I'd use that expensive insurance I'm paying for; same if my house burned down. And, I'm sure your statement applies to, would I use the warranty if my rod broke cause I already paid for replacement in the inflated cost in the first place. Is that a fair assumption? As previously stated, I offered to pay for the replacement of the rod I broke in the car door and the company sent me a new one.

But, as stated I'm an ignoramus when it comes to knowing what the actual production cost of a rod might be versus the selling price. Do you think the $600.00 rod cost about $300.00 to produce and the extra $300.00 sales price is what you're paying for a possible future replacement warranty? That seems to be the thinking from what I can detect.

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"Politicians and diapers should both be changed regularly and for the same reason."

no, i'd be amazed if a $600 rod cost $100 to produce. A $600 rod is sold to the shop for $300 (or less). The shop charges you $600

I have told this story a few times. I have borken one rod and actually I like to blame it on the 40 lb. king salmon on the other end of the line at the time the rod broke. Anyway the rod has a lifetime warranty and I could have it replaced at no cost to myself. Instead the rod which is in 4 pieces now (it used to be only 2 pieces) is hanging on the wall of my tying room along with a picture of the last fish it caught. No way is that rod getting replaced.

[This message has been edited by Kerry Stratton (edited 07 November 2005).]

I believe some of you are looking at what JC wrote from the wrong angle. I think JC's point is that the cost of the no fault warranty is not a large factor in the price of the rods. After reading the previous thread from last week, I would have to agree. I do not believe that the rod companies are building in a replacement rod for every single rod purchase, if the statistics from the last thread were close to being true, for every 100 rods built, they'd only have to divide the price of 12 (? think it was 12% breakage) new rods up among them. Not a significant cost increase by any means.

I prefer the idea of the retailers selling insurance, but not if the price of rods is only going to come down by 12% (or whatever the breakage percentage claims are). If you think of it, home electronics stores constantly try to get you to buy their warrantees and they are fairly cheap, but most of us (I never do) opt to not buy them. I do not see the built in price for a fishin' rod no fault warranty being much more than the same warrantees for electronics.

As far as Dave's question of using the insurance if you wrecked your car and it was your fault. Depending on how much the damages are, I would have to say darn right and I have (although it was technically my wife's fault, since we're on the same policy we both get penalized by the higher premiums). I may have to pay higher premiums by placing the claim pluse be stuck with the deductible for immediate out of pocket, but it still beats being stuck with a $20K (or whatever) bill for a totalled car. Now, if it were minor damage or the car were old enough that it would not be worth much, then I may opt to pay out of pocket.

Paul

PS, Lonnie, that Bo Cash was one class act for doing what he did. I believe his warranty is more inline with how most rod builders/manufacturers should be (i.e. one replacement per rod, after that you pay for the repair/replacement costs).

[This message has been edited by Gandalf (edited 07 November 2005).]

An intresting Idea is starting to deveolpe here.. All responsable folks put insurance on there car and we all know the rate you pay is dependant on a few things 1 of witch is your DRIVING RECORD. A progressive cost!! Co. pays for first breakage Customer pays for second, 3ed and forth. after that he banshed from the sport and forced to follow Tammy Fay around the country and confess his sins!!! LOL

Rich

How about this theory? The no-fault rod warranty is necessary to keep guides from going broke from the expense of replacing all the rods their clients step on, sit on, etc.

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Taxon
[url=http://FlyfishingEntomology.com:bcf74]FlyfishingEntomology.com[/url:bcf74]



[This message has been edited by Taxon (edited 07 November 2005).]

Gandalf,

Bo's a good egg. He's not wrapping rods anymore. He's told me I should retire mine...
[url=http://www.tablerockangler.com/index.cfm:cdc61]http://www.tablerockangler.com/index.cfm[/url:cdc61]

L

Rich , thats funny man .

Rich,

Not sure how you did but the ability to use the word "witch" and "Tammy Fay" in the same post with no connection to each other is quite a feat.