Casting II ?

Hi all,

I'm not a casting instructor. I often have friends and clients who could improve their casting technique though.

IMHO, ... one of the aspects that distinguishes a Real Instructor, is their ability to diagnose problems in a cast (or the caster).

Question:

What is the #2 problem you see that an intermediate caster does?, ... And, ... how can you help to fix it?

Ideas ??

Edit:
I'm not looking to blow my own horn here, ... I feel I should try to improve my "ability" to help some of my friends go a bit further and maybe evolve a tad. ... So I'm looking for tips http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif

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Christopher Chin
Jonquiere Quebec
Personal Page: [url=http://pages.videotron.com/fcch/:58406]http://pages.videotron.com/fcch/[/url:58406]

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[This message has been edited by fcch (edited 09 July 2005).]

Lack of practise And fishing is not practise. I wonder how much time Tiger spends on practise? it is always the differance between fair and good, good and great.

Rich

JC, ... Got your drift on that one.

The folks wo come to me for "instruction" or tips WANT to learn. Makes it really fun.

I've had clients who'd rather improve their casting and presentation, than fill a cooler with trout.

I'm starting to max out in my ability to diagnose some problems though. 'Fur instance, ... it was just a while ago that I figured out how to "fix" a trailing loop (thanks to y'all here http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif).

(p.s. ... Check your e-mail http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif)

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Christopher Chin
Jonquiere Quebec
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JC,

Quote:

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... a main flaw in the instruction of a 'green' instructor. The lack of experience in that ability, which 'only' can come from experience. ...

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A very important fact of Life there. 'fur instance, ... in my (real) job, ... I believe that a project CANNOT be supervised by someone how hasn't, in the past, successully DONE the job already.

Makes for some tough job requirements here, ... but then again, we're managing Public forest land.

As for learning "more" than a "pupil". ... Happens EVERY time someone asks a question http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif

(ps, ... it's saturday, ... not fishing ??) http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif

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Christopher Chin
Jonquiere Quebec
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I'm going fishing see ya.
Rich

I find intermediate casters are the hardest to teach. The problem is THEY DON'T LISTEN, actually they listen but revert back to thier old habits as soon as they get on the water. I have many times corrected a problem only to see them go back to the problem that has been deeply imbedded in muscle memory. To correct this I teach them a practice routine, tell them to do it 5 minutes a day for 2 weeks (not while fishing), to re-educate a long time casters habits.

Ray,

Quote:

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I find intermediate casters are the hardest to teach. ...

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Me too .... Beginners are a blast 'cause they progress FAST.

Advanced and technically "correct" casters, ... Out of my scope, so I don't go there ...

Intermediate folks, ... they have enough experience to make repetitive "faults" and not enough "experience" to "feel" the errors and auto-correct.

I DO have an advantage in that many folks up here are equiped for trout, ... so when they pick up a salmon rod, ... they "think" its different and are more "open" to learning.


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Christopher Chin
Jonquiere Quebec
Personal Page: [url=http://pages.videotron.com/fcch/:e5d4a]http://pages.videotron.com/fcch/[/url:e5d4a]

FishIn 2006:
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JC,

I know what you're saying.

I just like to keep up front the fact that I'm not an Instructor (with a capital "I" ... I can help many anglers have more fun casting. For those who are looking for "real" instruction, ... I know where to refer them http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif (ie ... HERE !!)


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Christopher Chin
Jonquiere Quebec
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Here's a small tip but one that has helped me many times. Alot of casters want to put too much of their body into it, mainly legs. Have them cast in a kneeling position for a bit and watch how quickly they understand the difference. It also helps them understand to keep their backcast higher.

Brumat,

Good one.

Thanx

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Christopher Chin
Jonquiere Quebec
Personal Page: [url=http://pages.videotron.com/fcch/:6c743]http://pages.videotron.com/fcch/[/url:6c743]

To answer your question, the #2 (or thereabouts) problem I see with an intermediate caster is the wrong application of power. They almost have it down, but for the timing.

I think the key to a good instructor is the ability to not only diagnose the problem but to COMMUNICATE why it's happening and how to fix it.

Practice good. Bad practice bad. You're just putting nasty stuff in muscle memory. Bad habits are a true-to-life bear to break. It's best to learn propery from the get-go and practice GOOD form.

Jackster,

Quote:

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It's best to learn propery from the get-go and practice GOOD form.

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A big thumbs UP there.

Someone FILMED me casting the other year, .... Years of self created perception, ... down the toilet !! http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif

I started ALL over again, ... from the basics, re-applying everything some very experienced instructors had told me (repeatedly).

I think I got 1/3 of my bad habits in check http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif


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Christopher Chin, Jonquiere Quebec

Casting is the EASIEST part of the whole game...so why is it that ,It seems to be the most studied asspect in flyfishing????

Just a thought that seems to run through my head whenever I read about casting,as casting should be nothing more than an after thought,such as breathing is,do it all the time,but I don't read about it.......write about it...and the "casting Instructer".....hummmm...

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"I've often wondered why it is that so many anglers spend so much money on,and pay so much attention to.the details on the wrong end of the fly line.If they took as much care in selecting or tying their flies as they did in the selection of the reel and rod,They might be able to gain the real extra edge that makes it possible to fool a fish that has,in fact,seen it all before" A.K.Best

"Wish ya great fishing"

Bill

>>Casting is the EASIEST part of the whole game<<

If all you mean is get the fly out any way possible and without care of accuracy or presentation then yes, I agree.

To get that fly near a bonefish moving right along at 60' out in a 25 knot breeze might be easy for some...
To get that fly under a 3' gap between the water and a rhodendrun so it lands next to the bank might be easy for some...
To get a perfect 50' curve cast 3' above that smart, hawg brown so it lands gently yet floats right down his lane might be easy for some...

fcch,

Maybe I missed a previous thread so I don?t understand why you are looking for the #2 problem, why not the #1 problem? Anyway for sake of discussion let?s first define an intermediate caster so we are on the same page.

How about an intermediate caster is one that can generally cast a 5 wt rod say 50 feet under moderately light wind conditions; is maxed out at 60 feet; and who?s accuracy is resonable (3 ft circle) to 40 feet? Also let?s define ?problem? as an issue that prevents improvement in the caster?s ability or skill.

Now I can think of a number of problems that such an individual could have. Here are my first thoughts on the subject - you place them in order and decide which is number two.

* Introducing slack into the line at some point during the cast.

* Improper application of power (timing or too much power) during the cast.

* Poor back cast (due any number of other problems)

* Knowing only one style of casting, thereby limiting the caster?s ability to change or adapt as conditions change.

* Unnessary false casting.

* Unable to double haul .

* Inability to recognize and self diagnose their own casting problems.

* Lack of pratice.

* Inproper use of the non-rod hand during the cast.

I?m sure there are more but these are my initial thoughts.

As a side point I also believe that many casters hamper their casting by selecting a rod that is beyond their ability. To be more specific, the ultra fast rods on the market today require much more precise timing than most intermediate casters have. These rods load and also unload very very quickly making it difficult for the less experienced caster to feel and control what is happening. Many casters, finding themselves with such a rod, end up using a heavier line to slow the rod. While this may help their casting, it also defeats the potential of such a rod.

Regards
Jim Cramer

Bill,

Quote:

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...why is it that ,It seems to be the most studied asspect in flyfishing? ...

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IMHO, ... many start casting and (hopefully) http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif ... end up fishing http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif ... That's why I did the pieces on "presentation" and never found the need (want) to do any on casting.

I have lots of fun up here (best excuse to put out as we don't catch lots of salmon http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif) ... I really do like going out Casting. Not fishing. We're resting a pool. I'll move over onto some "empty" water, ... a shallow slick say, ... String up 10-12 rods and CAST!. I'll play with leaders, under and over-lining. I'll work on rolls, curves, slacks, dble and single H.

Jim,
Thanx for the items. You know you're the FIRST who mentionned the #2 ?? ascpect of the question.

No, ... I don't know the #1, ... just wanted to see if anyone actually READS the dribble that JC lets me leave posted here http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif

I like the list of points, ... excellent ideas, ... I'll keep an eye out on those. As for the "improper" rod. That's the tough one. Occassionally, I'll be with someone who is, as you mention' not quite properly equiped (usually too stiff, too fast an action) for their state.

Problem is, how to get them to try a more appropriate rod when they just got their new Baby from the shop and REALLY want it to work (yes, some shops will let clients out the door with a big ticket rod that doesn't suit them).



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Christopher Chin, Jonquiere Quebec

Just like any subject to do with Flyfishing, this one has many facets.

One of the most common faults I come across is the delivery cast. It is amazing how often the caster will get their false casting working like a dream. Then wind up into the delivery cast and forgetting all about timing or pausing at the top. They SLASH the rod forward and down and present a cast that resembles a nice plate of spaghetti. Get them to slow down and not cut the top of the rod down to water level, and watch for the look of surprise when they realise Muscle is not the answer. Jax




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I'm a much better Fly fisher when talking fishing, than when I'm Actually Fly fishing!

Jax,

Thanx, ... Lots of timing and balance.

Slashing 'n crashing on the delivery (imho) comes often from the "desire" to cast FAR.


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Christopher Chin, Jonquiere Quebec

The 'slash' cast is what we call the 'anticipation' cast. They know they are going to let the line go on it and do everything wrong, (mostly trying too hard.)

The trick is NOT to change anything once you have your false casts the way you want them.

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LadyFisher, Publisher of
FAOL

LF,

I call it the "one false cast too many" cast.

I know what you mean, ... 2-3 false casts are perfect, ... then the delivery cast goes to pot http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/frown.gif


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Christopher Chin, Jonquiere Quebec

[This message has been edited by fcch (edited 09 July 2005).]

Chris;
I wish all these guys could have been at the Eagle Village Fish-In! We needed a lot of one on one instruction/support!

One of the girls asked if she could put on my waders for a photo. There she was in my size 10 waders which came to her armpits but game for it. so I had her get a rod and wade out from the beach for the photo.

I told her to go ahead and fish as long as she was out there. Now this youngster was not at all interested in flyfishing and my casting skill leave a lot to be desired so I just sort of stood back and watched. She kept getting caught in the tall reeds behind her. Not wanting to be the adult/teacher/drill sargent at this stage I suggested she cast parallel to the shore. Then I started with the slow down a bit, (she was overpowering) just wiggle the spider, hey you got one!! Now cast back to the same spot, Wow you got another one. When she caught one she would run up on shore (God I wish I could move that fast in waders!) so I showed her how to bring in a fish while in the water.

This was one smart girl, let me tell you! She figured it out on her own that she must keep the back cast high and went on to catch a lot of Gills.

When she came ashore I showed her the 12 o:clock, 2 o:clock and lay the line down on the water. I did this with several people sitting at the picnic table directly behind me and never hooked a one!! She was already thrilled with flyfishing and now she was thrilled with how much she had to learn. Just wish I was better at it!

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I feel more like I do now than I did when I got here!

Cactus AKA "Lucky Dog (Pirate Name)"



[This message has been edited by Jack Hise (edited 09 July 2005).]

JC,
Never had a shooting instructor either,Do have and know alot of good ppl who Cast and or Shoot Extremely well,I do take a pointer now and then, Such as Pointing ones feet where they plan on placeing the shot. It is always the little things is'nt it.... Can't say as that I'm a perfect caster or shot,I do well,Place my casts where I need them 99% of time and Have no trouble with any distances/Obsticles.Mostly in part to a good brushy upbringing,Lucky enough to seem to be blessed with a knack for many things.

Did not say Instructors were'nt a good thing, for those who can afford such luxeries,and any "Habits" I've taken too.
I have no desire to get rid of now,Not that it would be possible,I've taken my set and am happy with life as it is....well more time on the water would be my only want...

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"I've often wondered why it is that so many anglers spend so much money on,and pay so much attention to.the details on the wrong end of the fly line.If they took as much care in selecting or tying their flies as they did in the selection of the reel and rod,They might be able to gain the real extra edge that makes it possible to fool a fish that has,in fact,seen it all before" A.K.Best

"Wish ya great fishing"

Bill

Jack,
Sounds as thoe there is deffinitely another Joining the ranks with her,Glad she was able and willing to give it a shot,sometimes we are all better when left to explore on our own,with a little pointing in the right directions....

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"I've often wondered why it is that so many anglers spend so much money on,and pay so much attention to.the details on the wrong end of the fly line.If they took as much care in selecting or tying their flies as they did in the selection of the reel and rod,They might be able to gain the real extra edge that makes it possible to fool a fish that has,in fact,seen it all before" A.K.Best

"Wish ya great fishing"

Bill




[This message has been edited by billknepp (edited 09 July 2005).]

Jack !!

Wonderful.

IMHO, ... just goes, to once again prove, that youngsters (often) just need the opportunity to do (constructive) things. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif

(I wonder if you have "condemned" the poor gal to a life long pursuit) http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif



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Christopher Chin, Jonquiere Quebec

Bill,

I another life when I used to shoot some, ... the "shot" was about 1.76 seconds of work. The scouting, ingress and egress could take days (or weeks http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/frown.gif ).

My best "instructors" never taught shooting, ... but rather reading the water http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif

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Christopher Chin, Jonquiere Quebec

some can walk and chew gum at the same time too!...

Seriously folks,We all learn as we go, No matter how we start off is that guru going to be at your side "every" time you are near water?

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"I've often wondered why it is that so many anglers spend so much money on,and pay so much attention to.the details on the wrong end of the fly line.If they took as much care in selecting or tying their flies as they did in the selection of the reel and rod,They might be able to gain the real extra edge that makes it possible to fool a fish that has,in fact,seen it all before" A.K.Best

"Wish ya great fishing"

Bill

FWIW, i'd say

For the intermediate caster, 2nd most common mistake is using too short a stroke for the length of line being cast. Christopher, I'd guess you might be ranking tailing loops as #1. But then tails are symptom, not problem. And the too short stroke may be #1, as it causes some/most of the tails. (I'm surprised no one has mentioned this one)

For the beginner, almost certainly the opposite is #1 - too long a stroke for the length of line.

With the intermediate, the too-short stroke is often what causes tailing loops. And while "improper application of power" is often pretty hard to get a student to correct, it's much easier to get them adjusting their stroke length. Which often fixes the power app problem.

I enjoy intermediate casters. For me the key is (after diagnosing problem) to work around their habits, muscle memory, perceptions, etc. Get `em doing/thinking about something different.

A few years ago, Lefty yanked a rod from my hand saying "Gimme that d@#$#@ thing - you're overpowering it." He took it apart and gave me the 3' tip section & said "Now cast that." For those that have tried it, you know that power doesn't work with a 3-fter. I began to concentrate on power app, stroke & timing. `Helped my casting more in 3 minutes than anything ever had.

I saw another good trick a few weeks ago. A student just could not get the timing down. The instructor got him to walk as he cast. The instructor walked alongside and would speed up and slow down, not talking about anything in particular. The student sub-consciously adjusted his stroke to the walking speed and improved 200% in a 100' stroll. When he got to the end of the casting field, he was feeling the rod.

JC, I think maybe this is one of the reasons instructors get better with experience - they have more tools in their "bag of tricks." Every student is different.

Kent
[url=http://www.flyfishga.com:548cb]www.flyfishga.com[/url:548cb]

Kent,

Wow, ... thanks for the tips.

As for trailing loops, ... I realise that a t-loop isn't a problem, ... its A SIGN of a problem. ... I only recently found out how to fix it http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif



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Christopher Chin, Jonquiere Quebec

When I am coaching (and getting coached) at the casting club I often tell novices who have a good false cast to make their SECOND LAST cast their real cast - if they just stopped then everything would be fine. So I think the #1 problem is tipping the wrist/rod back on the backcast (like ALL other throwing motions, but not good for casting). The #2 problem is extending the arm too far in front on the final cast and keeping the arm too low in the process, this induces more (bad) wrist action. When I begin coaching someone I ask first if I am allowed to touch them. The answer is usually 'yes'. Thus I am permitted to put my hand over theirs on the rod handle to give them the feel of the timing, and also allows me to just snatch their (low and out-front & bent) wrist on a bad cast so that they really look at it. I guess a video would be more civil, but grasping a wrist at waist height when the caster thought it was at least at bicep/shoulder height is a revelation to the caster.

[This message has been edited by Greg H (edited 11 July 2005).]

My casting instructor and shooting instructor are the same guy! I get a tune-up with both at least twice a year.

[This message has been edited by Ray (edited 11 July 2005).]

Ray,

Cool ... I suppose the person can really shoot a line http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif

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Christopher Chin, Jonquiere Quebec

Good thread...

"Intermediate folks, ... they have enough experience to make repetitive "faults" and not enough "experience" to "feel" the errors and auto-correct."....agreed.

It has often intrigued me how teaching and learning casting is so akin to teaching and learning the golf swing...

A couple of comments...

Golfers for the most part should "PRACTICE" the swing on the range and "PLAY" golf on the course...should we be "PRACTICING" casting and "FISHING" on the water?

Here's something for you gurus...

Golf instruction has made big strides with the advent of video....should it be used in casting instruction?....probably is by some?????

By the way Chris, IMHO you are too self critical I'll bet your clients love you and wish they could cast like you.

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Respect Your Elders!

Duck,

Quote:

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I'll bet your clients love you and wish they could cast like you.

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Oh man !! .... I'll have to find a video of me casting and you can be the judge of that http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif

Some very competent and well know Masters of the art (of casting and flyfishing) has shaken their heads in amazement (and a bit of disgust http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif) at my "casting" style.

Then again, I can get a 10 dead drift on the far side of the #43 here across 50 ft of swift current from back on the beach http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif

Not pretty, ... but it does connect http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif


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Christopher Chin, Jonquiere Quebec

This is a very cool thread

I have not heard from Chris in a long while hope he is well..

Students hear what you say, not what you meant. An instructor should hear the lesson thru his students ears. If your going to teach someone the fly rod, bring a spinning rod to remind yourself what the student hears. If you know what I'm saying it makes perfect sense, on the other hand I don't teach 'casting' to fly rod students, it cuts about thirty years off their learning curve some have told me.

This has been an interesting post! When I decided to fly fish ( about 50 yrs ago) I didn't know any one who knew how to cast so I made the mistake of trying to teach myself. I thought I was doing pretty good until I saw someone who knew what he was doing. I found that it is very important to find to have someone watch you cast. Much better than reading about it or watching someone, but the thing that helped me most was watching a video of my own casting. I was not doing what I thought I was doing! Practice makes perfect? No! Perfect practice makes perfect. The video really helped me.

Intermediate casters often have developed bad habits which have become ingrained. Call it muscle memory. They aren't thinking about it....they're just doing it. That explains why it's so hard to teach them something. It's why it's harder to teach a man who's been spin or bait casting all his life (and why it's easy to teach a woman, because she probably hasn't had much experience spin casting or throwing a ball)

They may hear what you're saying but their brain / muscles have already imprinted the bad habit. The best way to break it...take the rod and stick it in their OFF hand... ie, Left for a right hander. It throws them right off and they have to learn the basics all over again. After they get what you're trying to get across in the off hand...move them back to the good hand and go from there.

And like stated before...fishing isn't fly casting practice. If that's the only time they cast a rod...they won't get better. When you're fishing, you don't think about the cast. Casting practice is essential if you want to build good habits. It's what teaches the brain and muscles so when you do go out to fish, you don't have to think about the cast. You just do it.

In all my years of working with fly fishermen, something they finely convinced me of was that they really didn't have any bad habits, they had poor understandings and gaps in their information. Once confronted with the definition of a 'bad habit', they realized they didn't have bad habits they had voids in their understanding, not bad habits. I never had a student or charter customer who chose to perform poorly even tho they knew how and could do better. There's a reason I don't use the word 'casting', and it goes directly to the reason my charges don't have bad habits.