Check this out DUCKSTERMAN

The new 2008 models are out! It looks like the whole bottom inflates meaning more weight capacity. Different oar system...
I have one of the cloth seats already (had it on my Cardiac). I might try not inflating the back rest and try the cloth seat.
I am concerned that this new oar system is so close to the tube itself and wonder how easy it is to row. I know Dave test everything himself so it must work. Plus the back is more blunt
What do you think?
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f1...ess/Outlaw.gif

Thanks, FG...
Checked it out in their catalog just now....
I like the more blunt back...the bladders may fit better...and it seems smoother...
The oarlocks confuse me a little ....I like what appears to be easier storage along the pontoons....looks like the paddles can be front or back...

Does the cloth seat allow for an inflated backrest?

Interesting but I need motor mount capability.

Dave has definitely done it again! The cloth seats are awesome. They have two metal braces up each side of the back to give it form but they can lay flat. I put it on my Cardiac after making the deck so I could stand on my boat without straddling the plastic seat.
I am sure it would work with the Navi seat.
The oars on the Navi should go either direction?! I have run with mine straight out, specially if the water is could and I wanna get my feet out of the water. I steer with the oars.
This Outlaw looks awesome though. I bet you could keep stuff dry in the back and you will be sitting much higher. I put a couple of carpet patches on my seat (the ones we stand on to put our boots on). We forgot to put them back in the truck when we went and parked it so I just threw them on the seat. I really liked that! No sliding around and sat a tad higher.

One thing I noticed on this one.....where do you stick the motor through?
I do know he is going with the bladderless tubes now so his boats will go up in price, but they will be lighter.

Looks to me like the Outlaw doesn't accommodate a motor:(

I'm talking about storing the oars when not in use on the NAVII.... I haven't gotten around to figuring out a convenient simple clamping system....looks like the Outlaw has one.

I usually steer with a flipper.....

Got ya. You got the shelf also didn't you? If so, we went to Sportsmen's Warehouse and found these Hook things. It is cloth liker burlap with velcro at one end and a 1" wide flat strip of metal bent into a hook at the other. We thread it through the hole in the side of the shelf and velcro it shut. The hook part is big enough to hold the blades easily. I will do some searching to see if I can find them or I will take a picture of them so you can see.

Thanks, Joni

Okay, They are put out by Outcast and I found this: http://www.outcastboats.com/outcastboats/boatacc.shtml
They are in the bottom left corner for $14. Not a great picture, but they made the blade transparent. It is cloth with velcro so you can put them anywhere.

Dear Joni,

Only $ 1600 for a kick boat with genuine plastic kiddie oars?

Hot diggity dog, where do I sign up and can I get two or three?

You should post a picture of the $ 2400.00 boat that has a standing platform. That should be the clincher for sceptics.

Scadden has officially gone mad.

Best Wishes,
Avalon

Interesting but I need motor mount capability.[/quote]

Ducksterman;
I can't tell, by Joni's picture, as to to actual height/angle of the rear of this new craft, but I wonder if something like Sevlor's universal motor mount, would work?
Looks like, also, if it DID that you may need an extension, between you and the motor's tiller. (Just an "eye-deer", I, also, have to use a motor on my 'Toon).

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/f...d01d006e48.jpg

"The bad boy of the boat world"!
I gotta agree with Avalon, I think Scadden has officially gone mad.
I must say I do like my Skykomish Sunrise but the 08 catalog is a little far out there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Avalon

Dear Joni,

Only $ 1600 for a kick boat with genuine plastic kiddie oars?

Hot diggity dog, where do I sign up and can I get two or three?

You should post a picture of the $ 2400.00 boat that has a standing platform. That should be the clincher for sceptics.

Scadden has officially gone mad.

Best Wishes,
Avalon

---

My thoughts exactly

Tim

Do you guys think maybe it is because all Scaddens new boats are bladderless? That costs in any of the pontoon models. I haven't seen the oars but I am betting it is a weight issue, and if Larry and Dave use them I am sure they work.
I am very interested in the Skykomish LP....13" diameter pontoons.
Besides, the price he prints on these and the price he actually sells them for are usually to different things.

Oars look way too short?

$1600.00 for a kickboat? And the model with the frame and platform is like $2,400.00?
You can be in a 2-man, true whitewater raft or cataraft for that much. Scadden has made some fine boats in the past, and still does, but some of the claims he makes about "technical whitewater" and certain boats being less prone to wind, etc, leaves me scratching my head and thinking yep, he has offficially flipped out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Panman

My thoughts exactly

Tim

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Dear Tim,

Good!

I didn't want anybody to think I was the only sane person around here! ;-)

Regards,
Tim Murphy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fly Goddess

Do you guys think maybe it is because all Scaddens new boats are bladderless? That costs in any of the pontoon models. I haven't seen the oars but I am betting it is a weight issue, and if Larry and Dave use them I am sure they work.
I am very interested in the Skykomish LP....13" diameter pontoons.
Besides, the price he prints on these and the price he actually sells them for are usually to different things.

---

Dear Fly Goddess,

Honestly, unless you are carrying the boat on your back for 50 miles does bladderless really mean anything?

What I would really like to know is how Scadden's boats defy the laws of physics and always manage to have greater carrying capacity and floatation than boats with larger diameter pontoons or bladders? It's scientifically impossible but he always claims greater flotation and capacity than the competition?

Best Wishes,
Avalon

Dave's boat's are okay, boats, as inflatables go. His have some nice features, even, some that other boat makers don't offer. But, other makers offer things that HE doesn't, I think, that's called "competitive marketing".

But, one huge thing, that others DON'T seem to offer is the ability to laugh yourself into hysterics, when you see their latest catalog!!
"Hey, every one!! LOOK at how tough, mean, and AWESOME I AM, because I have this very expensive bike, I bought only because there were enough of you that bought my over priced boats, I could afford it!"
"Yep! That IS............."real fish guts and chain oil" on my waders!! Don't I look, "MEAN"? Wanna touch my "Do-Rag" for luck? And, don't you DARE MISS page #6 of my 2008, catalog where I introduce the brand new, only one in the industry...... "Pre-inflated ATV air bag system" for safer off road riding!!

I liked D.S. boats a lot better, when he was working hard to make a really fine boat,and made them affordable to the average fisherman. Now, it seems, he's into the same vein of marketing and promotion, that many rod manufactures are also following........... "Make it so expensive, that every one will have to own one, for the sole purpose of being able to show it off and claim "LOOK, what I have, and YOU don't! Aren't I "special"?

His "list of 30 reasons to own a Dave Scadden Boat", also is interesting in the fact of; how many claims he makes that "our so and so feature, is the best in the industry"!! Well, by WHOSE vote and standards? A friend of mine, has a brand new, D.S. boat, with that "rear deck w/built in motor mount", on Dave's list and when he hung his 28# thrust, electric on this "best in the industry motor mount", the weight of the motor alone, BENT the cheap aluminum diamond plate. He had to cross mount a 2x4 against the "motor mount" to support his Minnkota.
And, I think he's sort of "reaching" a bit, to make it 30 reasons, when he has to list his "machined Derlin pulleys, for the anchor rope"!?! (Read, "lathe turned plastic wheels).
Yes, Scadden has some fine boats. No doubt about it. But his pricing base leaves a LOT to be desired for what he really offers, I feel.

Although................... I DO LIKE that ATV air bag system!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by flybinder

Don't I look, "MEAN"? Wanna touch my "Do-Rag" for luck? And, don't you DARE MISS page #6 of my 2008, catalog where I introduce the brand new, only one in the industry...... "Pre-inflated ATV air bag system" for safer off road riding!!

---

That's halarious!!! (funny but true). Thanks for the laugh today!

I am guessing this is why ODC, Skeeter, Creek Co., etc. are still around. For those of you who can't justify the price tag.
As far as the shelf bending.....did he clamp the motor right to the plate? the plate is only about 1/4" thick. Put a chunk of 2"x4" and about 6" long wood block in and I guarantee it won't bent. I never considered cranking my motor mount bolts all the way in to attach it to the thin metal. You look at any motor mount and they are either a 1" thick piece of metal or wood. Duh.

I like his boats as do a lot of others. I do feel he is way ahead of the game and does introduce the latest and the greatest. What is the newest thing you have seen from Outcast or Bucks?

I am not here to defend NFO, Duckster and myself share the same NFO boat and I for one think it is the neatest thing introduced to water since POWER BAIT. It is the predissesor (sp)
to the Outlaw.

Avalon, Thinner diameter toons can hold as much as larger if they are LONGER.
As far as Bladderless, the big advantage is the weight. To some that is very important.

Check out the top of the line on these two. The first one will take all day to set up the frame alone.
Daves boats are also AMERICAN MADE!
http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.asp?pfid=1178
http://www.outcastboats.com/outcastb...acseries.shtml

As far as his video or his ads, I see excitement and creativity, what do you want to see?

FlyGoddess wrote:
"I never considered cranking my motor mount bolts all the way in to attach it to the thin metal. You look at any motor mount and they are either a 1" thick piece of metal or wood. Duh.

Quoted from Scadden's site:
12.Genuine diamond plate rear decks. Huge capacity yet super light weight. Largest capacity rear decks in the industry.

13. Built in motor mounts, built right into every rear deck system.

Sorry, but I looked at all of "Dave's 30 reasons", for buying his boat over another, and never saw the statement......... "If you also reinforce the BUILT IN MOTOR MOUNTS, BUILT RIGHT INTO EVERY REAR DECK SYSTEM........with your own 2xx4....duh".

Personally, after looking at my buddy's Scadden rear deck and "Built right in, motor mount", I wouldn't have mounted ANY size motor on it, without first reinforcing with wood.

Nor, am I knocking the Scadden boats for quality, and/or, innovative designs. They're nice boats, I've fished from two models now and liked them just fine. But, no, I can't justify the price, anymore that I can justify a $700.00 fly rod......... "Because it's the latest and greatest thing, since night baseball".

As for "changes and innovations", and "what has Outcast and Bucks done, lately?" Well, not much, really!! But, then again, perhaps their customer base is happy with the equipment, both already make. Maybe they "got it right", the first time around and don't feel they NEED to play "Paris Hilton Bling", every time they need new spark plugs for their road hog. I don't know. Don't care, either.

I'm always happy to hear, that someone is sold on a product and that they really like their equipment!! It's great... it's how we all learn about new and different things in our obsession.

But, when you look at a standard spinning reel, it has perhaps, about 75 well machined, close tolerance,finally matched parts. It sells, roughly, for $79.95.

A fly reel. Hmmmm, has perhaps, 11 major, well machined, close tolerance, finally matched parts? WHY, does it sell for $279.95?

A Mastery 4 fly line sells for $54.95. Nice line, for probably 95% of the typical fly fisher's 30 to 60 feet she/he will usually be fishing.

A Shark Skin is $99.95 and 95% of those sold, I'll wager, will be used by that SAME 95%, that will do the 30 to 60 feet throws.

SO? Point? Well, "Point being, and as EVERYTHING on this fine site.... ONLY my OWN opinions........ "A Marketing Blitz Runs Through It", I think the movie was called.

Or, in other words, for those of us, that can't/won't/don't care to "justify the cost"...... fly fishing, once you're off the water and in the boardroom, is one of the greatest "gimmick sports" in the world.

Companies KNOW that most flyfishermen/women, will pay ANY price for ANY item, if it's "The latest, greatest, gooderest,besterest,neaterest, coolest, thing since THE LAST MODEL was introduced"!

"WHAT, do I want to "SEE", in an ad for a boat? Well, for sure, not Dave Scadden dressed like he wants to star in the next serial of "Die Hard IX". I don't want blonds in thongs, either. Seeing, either, doesn't tell me squat, about the quality of a company's product.

Yep, Dave owns a nice motorcycle. That's nice, but if I were going to lay down $2,400 for one of his boats, I'd surely like to know more about the boat than the fact he can afford such nice toys.

Sure, there are LOTS of "sillier ads", out there, than Scadden's, but somehow, his "tough biker image" just hits me funny considering he's tying it all into fly fishing, by also holding the rod and trying to sell 'Toon boats!?!!

We pay, what we pay, for the items we want to own, think we "NEED" and can't live without. It's what keeps the fly fishing industry afloat.

It's merely the fact, that each of us must decide how much quality we'll pay for, how much name recognition we'll pay for and how much dock side, bling, we're willing to pay for!

Good discussion going here.....

From my prospective....

The NavII that FG and I have is almost perfect for the fishing that I do...the new Outlaw [that started this thread] won't replace it because I don't see it using a motor.

I'm glad Scadden thinks outside the box ....gave me the NavII

Price....as FG said he sells for "show prices"....at least I think if you call and ask he'll accommodate you...that's what I did.....

Like most things it's....."to each his own"...I'm sure happy with what I've got.....

WOW....the Giants just scored:roll:

I'll take that Aire Jag that Joni posted above, please. That right thar is one fine whitewater craft!

Many of you must be too young to remember Herter's "World Famous" items in his catalog. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DLJones

Many of you must be too young to remember Herter's "World Famous" items in his catalog. ;)

---

They were .....pluperfect

I've been reading this thread and can't help be amused at some of you. Some of you guys sound like a bunch of jealous school girls. I'm sure none of you are though.
I did take a gander at the online catalog. I didn't really pay much attention to the 'hog' and the 'doo rag' as some of you did originally, but I did notice you could pack up a kickboat and take it on a motorcycle, or ATV with no problem. As for someone mentioning "A friend of mine, has a brand new, D.S. boat, with that "rear deck w/built in motor mount", on Dave's list and when he hung his 28# thrust, electric on this "best in the industry motor mount", the weight of the motor alone, BENT the cheap aluminum diamond plate. He had to cross mount a 2x4 against the "motor mount" to support his Minnkota."
I've seen his stuff (boats and decks) at the shows, and common sense comes into play on this one. Does everything have to be spelled out for some people. Like the "Don't place hand in chute went lawnmower is running" warning.
The decks I saw are bent up 90 degrees at the end. Put your motor up to it and "bam" add a 2x4.
Are You Smarter Than A Third Grader? Apparently not.
I'm not sticking up for Scadden, but has anyone here seen one of these boats in person yet?
You guys are sure quick to judge.
Sure $1600 and $2400 are a lot. So don't buy them. I won't, but don't knock them till you see them.
Last month it was the Orvis Helios- this month Scadden kickboats. What's next?

Is the i-phone worth $399? Not for me.

One more thing. I think it was flybinder that mentioned that Bucks or Outcast hasn't changed maybe because their customer base is happy with what they build and sell. For me I'm glad that Ford, GM, Chysler and others don't think that way.

One more thing to add to the direction this post went. I had a hard time with the $1,400. Price tag on my Cardiac Canyon (not what I paid mine you but real close to that and I don't regret it for a minute), but I will agree these new prices are not only brutal, but a bit scary.
Wait and see I guess.

Dear CaptainBilly,

Nice rant!

Did it have a point?

Best Wishes,
Avalon

Dear fly goddess,

Getting back to the thread and your response about about length of tubes versus diameter I have to say it's all about displacement.

For example Creek Company says their 1018 with 10 foot long X 18" diameter tubes has a capacity of 400 pounds.

Scadden claims a capacity of 700 pounds for their Skykomish Sunrise with 10' 6" tubes of 16" diameter.

The volume of a cylinder = pi x the radius squared x the height

Forgetting about rocker and assuming that both Creek Company and Scadden support their boats with true cylinders then Scadden's math is horrible wrong.

Creek Company

3.14 x 81 x 10 = 2500 plus

Scadden

3.14 x 64 x 10.5 = 2110

The Creek Company boat actually has 20 percent more carrying capacity than the Scadden boat, it's simple math.

Another thing that frosts me about Scadden is that he has suggested retail prices for all his boats. I'll buy you a house if you can produce for me 2 people who actually paid suggested retail for his boats? The Skykomish Sunrise has a retail of $ 1600.00 but yet Cabela's sells it for $ 999.99 and often offers free shipping.

He may be the greatest guy in the world and he may make some truly innovative boats but to me he sucks at math and for that reason alone I'd have a hard time time buying any of his products.

It may not be his intent, but to me he just seems terribly dishonest?

Best Wishes,
Avalon

Yeah, Whizbang, that'd be me....... the dumber than a 3rd. grader guy.
(quote)..."One more thing. I think it was flybinder that mentioned that Bucks or Outcast hasn't changed maybe because their customer base is happy with what they build and sell. For me I'm glad that Ford, GM, Chysler and others don't think that way".(end quote)
And, your above quote says exactly the same fact as I made about equipment manufacturers in fly fishing....... about "Ford, GM, Chrysler and others".... all three manf. are so "forward thinking", that all their car models, from 2005 to present, you can't tell apart, unless you can get close enough to see the company logo. They also lead the auto industry in recalls, and all for safety problems. Ford, unless it's changed in the past 30 days also leads the auto industry in poor sales.
But, the post is about boats.
If readers of posts, would READ POSTS, instead of practicing their speed reading class projects, they'd have noted where I ALSO STATED; "I took one look at the so called "Best in the industry, built in motor mount" and I WOULD have placed a 2x4 across the plate, before mounting any sized motor".
However, when a manufacturer makes the claim that "I HAVE THE BEST BUILT IN MOTOR MOUNT IN THE INDUSTRY", that is the same as saying; "MY motor mounts are THE EXACT SAME, EQUAL TO, OR BETTER THAN.... Sevlor, Sea Eagle, or ANYONE ELSE'S". Which, anyone passing 3rd. grade, would read his statement as such.
So, since say, "Sevlor's motor mount, DOES NOT require any extra support, to function as a reliable motor mount, Scadden is claiming that "HIS DOES NOT EITHER".
Even we 3rd, grade drop outs, WhizBang, know better than to "compare apples to grapefruit". It's not the "Look at and figure it out, yourself, type of claim" he makes. His ads clearly state, without room for question or doubt, that "He has the best in the industry,thus making his motor mounts BETTER than those of Sevlor, Sea Eagle, et al".
"The awesome advantage of packing a kick boat on a motorcycle or ATV", isn't a D.S brain storm either. MY 8' white water rated Creek Co. boat fits into its own backpack, complete with oars, pump and room for two rod tubes. I don't transport my boat this way, no need to. But, it's not a world spinning brand new idea. My O.C. is 4 years old.

Now, finally, Whiz........ as we were being taught, right before I left the 3rd. grade and entered my life long career of being a swimming pool light bulb changer...... take your finger and put it under each word, as you read the "last sentence in my second post on this topic".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DLJones

Many of you must be too young to remember Herter's "World Famous" items in his catalog. ;)

---

Gads, how I WISH I "was too young to remember", but I'm not!
I still have some old Herter's original catalogs and they're some of the funniest reading material I have on hand!!
It never mattered, in Herter's eyes,"WHO, made, WHAT", Herter's ALWAYS had the better mouse trap!
The only sports manf.figure that even came close to Herter's and his "opinions" was old man Gerke himself.

Dear flybinder,

Dude, you are feisty!

Feisty is good!

Best Wishes,
Tim Murphy as "Avalon"

Here is some pontoon boat info;
http://www.washingtonflyfishing.com/...ad.php?t=29422

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Avalon

Dear CaptainBilly,

Nice rant!

Did it have a point?

Best Wishes,
Avalon

---

Not a rant, just a observation and comments. Point? Re-read the post.

Flybinder- I agree 100% with you about reading posts. My comment wasn't directed to you. It was your quote- here it is again "A friend of mine, has a brand new, D.S. boat, with that "rear deck w/built in motor mount", on Dave's list and when he hung his 28# thrust, electric on this "best in the industry motor mount", the weight of the motor alone, BENT the cheap aluminum diamond plate. He had to cross mount a 2x4 against the "motor mount" to support his Minnkota."
No where did I mention you did it. If it came across as such, I apologize to you.
Scadden is a boat builder and promoter of his boats. Best in the industry? I don't know if it is or not. If I were to buy a Scadden boat, I would naturally look at the advantages that his boat has over another brand. Hopefully in person, or talking to others that have that boat, not just by reading the propaganda that is put out by the manufacturer.
One more question to Murphy/Avalon- Does the material the 'toons are made of make a difference in the overall capacity of the boat? Example- you have three 9' boats. Same diameter pontoons. Same length. One boat has urethane bladders, one has PVC, the other is bladderless. Is the capacity the same for all boats?

You know, I posted my take on the Navigator II on another forum earlier this year and it took on a similar direction.
Two posters felt the NEED to bash NFO and then me. I don't know why those TWO felt this need other than to maybe prove they were BETTER, or SMARTER, or to just show they didn't care for Scadden for one reason or another (I am betting they never owned a Scadden either)
But as I said that was another FORUM.
Also similar is that the post started off HARMLESS and just what I experienced and like so I thought I would share. Ducksterman and I SHARE this subject.
Daves ads are to people interested in purchaseing a pontoon or tube and he shows all the wonderful things you can do with them (provided you have the skills)
EVERY MANUFACTURE DOES THIS!
I get so tired of BUZZ killers, but there seems to be a lot of Un happy people that get off on that.
One more thing, I bought a brand new boat (Alumicraft) a few years ago and the motor (Mercury) a few years ago. When I went to pick up the boat, the gentleman that owned the shop told me I needed to go get a CHUNK OF WOOD to put under the motor mount or it would eventually pull the back of the boat off. Alumicraft stated it was MOTOR READY. Thanks to one man that didn't happen and maybe that is why I knew I had to add "WOOD" to Daves. Plus boat manufacturers don't seem to have any wood lying around. Yes, Dave needs to tell people this if nothing else, to cut down on returns.
Ducksterman, you got my idea on this post, so I feel we are done here.
However, the rest of you can stay and play around some more.

Capt. Billy,
It would seem to me that the materials used would have little bearing on displacement. Air volume equals water displacement. I dont see how material can alter that fact. Then again, I'm no mathematical whiz either!