I plan on tying 5x and 6x tippet material to a 9' tapered leader that is 5x (5x to 5x and 6x to 5x), should i use a nail knot, a blood knot, or is there another that is better to join them?
Printable View
I plan on tying 5x and 6x tippet material to a 9' tapered leader that is 5x (5x to 5x and 6x to 5x), should i use a nail knot, a blood knot, or is there another that is better to join them?
Garb, the surgeons knot has served me well when connecting tippet to leader.
the double surgeons knot has always been good to me.
blood knot in that size tippet is way too hard for me to tie.
The surgeons knot has never failed me.
Double surgeons knot here, too.
Double surgons knot for me as well. Fast and easy to tie, even with cold, wet hands and holds well.
Jim smith
Surgeons knots are easier for many people to tie, but I always use blood knots because they give a straight connection between each leader section. I've tied so many blood knots over the years that I don't have a problem tying them quickly (most of the time!).Quote:
Originally Posted by garb72
A nail knot won't work at all for this.
garb72,
I have been using a double surgeons knot for many years when tying mono tippet to a mono leader. Once I started using only fluorocarbon tippet, I switched to what I call a triple surgeons knot. I use a Cinch Tie Knot Tying Tool, sold by Orvis, Cabela?s and others, and it works great for that knot. The surgeons knot is a great knot to use for leader to tippet connections.
Larry ---sagefisher---
Double surgeons here too. Very easy to tie with cold fingers.
TB
For the past 2 years, I've been using what amounts to a double Uni knot that I tie using the Tie-Fast tool.
Take the tool, put your leader and tippet together, tie a "nail knot" on one tag, turn it around, tie a "nail" know on the other, moistne the lines and slide the two knots together.
I did some puerly unscientific tests with this knot against a double surgeon's knot and a blood knot (actually several examples of each knot to be sure I didn't eiter tie one "super knot" or one "really bad" knot.
I first tried two leader tippet sections one with the test knot (double knot tied with the tie fast tool) and the control knot (either a blood knot or a double surgeon's). I tied the end of the tipet to a hook, linked the two hooks together and pulled slowly on each line to see which one broke first. The problem I ran into was they almost always broke at the hook first (taught me something about my knots at the hook end but more on that in another thread).
So, I ended up rigging a way to wrap the tippets around a dow pin and then pull on the leader ends. This worked well as it tested the knots against each other.
What I found was the "double nail knot" (glorified uni knot from what I can tell) was stronger then the blood knot in almost all tests. The "double nail knot" was stronger than the Double Surgeon's knot in 7 of my 10 tests and the Double Surgeon's knot was better in the other 3.
There could have been other stress factors on the lines, could be I was getting sloppy tying knots, could be a lot of things, but when out on a stream or a lake, one cannot control varibles either so I thought this was a realistic, if not scientific test.
For me, the bonus of the "knot too" knot is I can tie it in my sleep, with cold fingers, and in about half the time it takes me to tie a surgeon's knot and I can tie three of these in the time it takes me to tie one blood knot.
Also, this knot ends up looking like a blood knot, slides through the guides well and keeps the lines straight.
Jeff
Blood knots for me but I cant tie them without the aid of a tieing tool....thats chained to my vest..*S*
The figure 8 knot is also a good one. As others have said, the double surgeons has served me very well. I have a devil with the blood knot and have pretty well given up on it, with no ill effects on the fishing.
This little critter makes blood knots easy as pie...
http://www.madriveroutfitters.com/im...rcdennison.jpg
Do you carry hemostats (forceps) with you on your vest? I echo the double or triple surgeon's knot but I like tying mine using my hemostats.
http://mudbugco.com/joom/images/stor...fthemoknot.pdf
You can also search the internet for a video on this. It was posted on flyfisherman.com but when I went there I couldn't get the video to display. It was done by Lefty Kreh.
I like using the hemostats as I feel it's easier to tie especially since I have phat phumbling phingers.
I've also used the Tie-Fast tool and use it to make up my knotted leaders down to the last section and then tie on whatever tippet I want when I'm at the stream using the hemostat knot. I've used the tool that Sully posted above and it works ok for blood knots but I think the tie-fast tool is quicker and simpler to operate.
Only ever used a blood knot for tapering leaders no matter what sizes.
I prefer the double surgeon's knot, on those rare occasions when I need to add tippet.
Those occasions are rare because I use a furled leader with a tip ring for virtually all my ( trout ) fishing. Just use a clinch knot to tie the tippet to the leader tip ring and good to go.
Tippet to leader=double surgeon's knot.
tippet to furled...loop to loop using surgeon's loop on the tippet or improved clinch.
Mike
Another vote for the double surgeon's knot. It's the only one I ever use for tippet material. 8T :)
I usually don't post on these kinds of threads because this kind of thing really breaks down to personal preferences in most cases, but I think when it comes to tippet to leader knots, there is an exceptional knot that is consistently overlooked, presumably because it's nowhere near as well known as the two that are typically mentioned - surgeon's and blood knots. The one I'm referring to is known as the Orvis Tippet Knot I think, though it is probably very similar to the Figure 8 knot that someone else mentioned. I never embraced the blood knot when I got started because it just looked way too complex for me to tie reliably on the many occasions where I'm adding tippet during a typical day's fishing. I know many who have said once you get accustomed to it, it becomes second nature, but I never gave myself a chance to get to that point. As a result, I spent most of my FF life tying variations of the surgeon's knot, but I was bothered by the fact that I had periodic failures with that knot. Could have been operator error of course, and there weren't a great many of them, but enough that it worried me about that being a potential weak link at a bad time, like in the middle of a tussle with a big fish. I read an article some years ago about the strength of the Orvis Tippet Knot vs. the Double Surgeon's and Blood Knot. As I recall, it was far superior to the DS and as good as the BK. Anyway, I looked it up and thought it looked very easy to tie (and it is), and started using it years ago and have never looked back. Not a single failure since (knock on wood!) and I can tie it easily in any conditions. Here's a link to an animated illustration of it. For the record, I have no affiliation with or particular love for Orvis, just a very satisfied user of the knot.
http://www.orvis.com/orvis_assets/files/index.html
Hi Garb,
...Or you could seek out a 10 foot or 12 foot 6X leader and do away with the extra connection.
In lieu of that either the double surgeons or blood knot will usually suffice, the latter being my choice in most situations, but then I can tie them by hand very quickly.
The best knot to use will usually be the one you're most proficient at tying.http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/i...ons/icon12.gif
Best, Dave
Thanks for the input everyone!
Double surgeons works great for me. i dont have any problems with it plus it's fast and easy with great strength. nothing easier than two loops then pull tight.
-fresnoflyman
Kind of veering off a bit here but related to the subject. I only fish with furled leaders with a tippet ring. Therefore I never have a need for any tool, and I never have to tie a blood knot, a nail knot...etc. All done by hand and quick and easy. Heck you can even get by with just one knot. Improved clinch knot for tying tippet to tippet ring...and for tying on the fly. I have not much knowledge about other knots and don't need any. The heck with nylon tapered leaders. Furled the only way to go...just in my opinion. The only opinion I am an expert on. <grin> ...Meaning others may disagree and have their own opinion.
I like the simplicity of furled leaders with tippet rings.
Just fyi
Jim
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_N
Ding! Ding!
In-line and stronger than both the blood knot and any version of the surgeon's.
According to who's measurements of knot strength???Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven
What I dont understand, and Im the first to agree that a blood knot can be an absolute ***** to tie, is that in step three of Orvis's guide you...
"..close the second loop by bringing the tippet ( and the short end of heavier piece) thru the first loop".??
I might have 4-5 feet of tippet to have to drag thru that tiny loop...and thats NOT going to be a real PITA?????
I'll see your:
Blood knot
Surgeons Knot
Double Surgeons
Triple surgeons knot
and Orvis knot
And raise you:
A quad knot (four times through) and a quin knot( five times through).
Any bets?:D
A "quint" knot?? Isnt that what that woman out in CA gave birth to?.....:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by hairwing
Knot Strength Varies Widely
Most of the study of knot strength has focused on tests of a few knots. A striking fact that tests have turned up is that strength varies so much from one knot to another. As shown by both experience and numerous tests, some knots weaken a "leader" by more than 50%, while others weaken it by less than 10%.
The following table, which is extracted from various reports, compares the relative strength of a few familiar knots. A straight or un-knotted leader is assumed to have 100% strength. While the exact figures should not be trusted, the general range of strength is corroborated by other tests and by experience.
Strong Knots: Amount of original strength
Blood Knot 85?90% (Barnes); 80% (Day)
Flemish Bend 81% (Frank and Smith)
Figure Eight Loop 80% (Frank and Smith)
Double Fisherman?s 79% (Frank and Smith)
Moderately Strong Knots
Butterfly 75% (Frank and Smith)
Bowline 60% (Day)
Overhand Knot 60-65% (Luebben )
A Weak Knot
Overhand Bend (My less than 50%)
For my fishing (furled leaders for anything much warmer than 34 degrees), I've taken to tying a perfection loop in a small piece of superbraid, then nail knotting that to the bottom of my leader, and coating both knots with a bit of UV Knotsense.
I then tie a perfection loop in the end of a length of tippet and loop-to-loop it to my leader.
It may not be another's definition of elegance, but it keeps things turning over in a straight line and once you master the perfection loop, it's really easy, in any conditions.
Besides, how many trout have really tested your knot strength at any juncture above the tippet-to-fly point? Not many of mine. As long as the weakest link is closest to the fly, you'll be okay. I tie imp. clinch to the fly and have never lost a fish due to insufficient knots. Any time I break a tippet it's due to being tangled around some obstacle, and the only time a knot above the imp. clinch breaks is when the fly is dangling beyond, and the stress was on the next knot up...exactly as it should be.
1) I believe it was FlyFisherman mag, but could have been one of the others. Basically found that the Orvis tippet knot and the Ligature knot were the strongest knots in current use. The Ligature looks like a real pain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sully
My own fishing experience would indicate same.
2) I don't usually fish 4 foot tippets, more like 2 - so pulling a 4 foot tippet through the hole might take you 4 seconds rather than just 2.
Over the years I've settled for works best for my tying skills, especially in the field (the K.I.S.S. method) ... the double sureon's knot has served me well for a long time.
And as I recall from my first mentor ... "a knot is only as good as it's tied."
Dale
Keep in mind that whatever you tie it must be executed well. Lubricate with saliva or water when tightening and pull the ends slowly until seated.
I did conduct a less than scientific test some time back on all the popular tippet to leader connections and found the orvis tippet knot to be superior.
Put me down for the orvis.
Leo C.
Like I said originally, these kinds of things often come down to personal preference. That's not all bad with knots since, as someone basically observed already, a bad knot tied well will often do better than a good knot tied poorly. If there's something about the Surgeon's Knot for example that is easier and/or more comfortable to tie than an Orvis Tippet Knot, then it probably doesn't make sense to make the switch. In my case, I found the OTN plenty easy to tie and the difference in performance for me has been like night and day.
A couple of quick notes: to the gentleman that mentioned having to pull 4 feet of tippet through the loop, I often do too and find it no trouble at all. Like with the surgeon's or others where the line is passed through a loop, I simply grab the section of the line(s) that is passing through the loop and pull on it, and the remainder - 4 feet or otherwise - comes through with no difficulty or time wasted at all.
For others who have expressed a preference for hemostat-tied knots, here's a link to an easy way to do the Orvis Tippet Knot with hemos:
http://www.mudbugco.com/flyfish/inde...hing&Itemid=73
Just an observation - the hemostat knot mentioned above is not an Orvis Tippet knot and may or may not perform the same way as the original. Subtle variations in knots can have a dramatic difference in performance - for example granny versus square
Holy smokes, you are so right. My apologies to everyone. I only glanced at it originally, as I don't tie mine with hemos, and took the headline at its word. I noticed as I read a little further just now that the person who put that page up mentioned substituting his own photos, since Lefty Kreh's were unavailable for some reason. I don't know if that's where the difference was introduced, or if it is truly misidentified. I tried to Google the knot (attributed as Lefty Kreh's hemostat blood knot, which is also said to be "the same as the Orvis Blood Knot" :confused: ) All I found were a bunch of dead links to a video on another fly fishing web site. My apologies for the incorrect information. As Holden mentioned, the linked hemostat knot is of different construction vs. the OBK, so I can't speak to its strength.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield