Tying questions

1. What are the pros and cons of using a head cement such as flexament as opposed to a water based product.

2. Are there general rules for when to use hooks with a turned down eye vs straight vs turned up.

3. Relative to hackle size: if tying a fly such as a elk hair caddis, how critical is it to use #12 hackle on a #12 hook. If all one has is #10 hackle, how bad is it to use it on a #12 or #14 hook. I used the elk hair caddis as an example, but have wondered about this on other flies as well.

It seems like I am always missing something when trying to follow recipes. I either don't have the exact color or the exact size.

Thanks for any responses.

1. What are the pros and cons of using a head cement such as flexament as opposed to a water based product.

I do not flexament, except for coating tent wings on caddis dry patterns and for wingcases on nymph/pupa patterns. Reason for using the flexament, is the wings do not curl, as happens using nail polish.

For protection on the head wraps I use nail polish, such as "Sally Hanson's Hard as Nail". I find water based products too slow in drying, and have not noticed any rejections using nail polish.

2. Are there general rules for when to use hooks with a turned down eye vs straight vs turned up..

Turn up, Turn Down, and Straigh Eyes, have to do with how the fly is fished.

For dry flies that are fished with no motion, the eye is not important, I prefer eye up.

With Streamers, I prefer straight eyes, for a straight pull.

For Nymph/Pupa, I seem to be stuck using the eyes down, do to lack of other hook options.

For Wet Flies, I perfer straight eyes when available.


3. Relative to hackle size: if tying a fly such as a elk hair caddis, how critical is it to use #12 hackle on a #12 hook. If all one has is #10 hackle, how bad is it to use it on a #12 or #14 hook. I used the elk hair caddis as an example, but have wondered about this on other flies as well..

On dry flies proportions are critical, for the fly to properly sit on top of the water surface.

For Wet Flies, Nymphs/Pupa, Streamers; there is a little leeway with the feathers.

4. It seems like I am always missing something when trying to follow recipes. I either don't have the exact color or the exact size.

We all have that problem, that why we are alway broke. $2000 worth of material, and still not having what you need to tie a pattern.


~ Parnelli
Chartered Member of "Friends of FAOL"!

Down in the meadow in a little bitty pool
Swam three little fishies and a mama fishie too
"Swim" said the mama fishie, "Swim if you can"
And they swam and they swam all over the dam
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[This message has been edited by Steven H. McGarthwaite (edited 03 August 2005).]

When tying with deer hair........
Flexament is a must use it between spun clumps, And on the bottom of the completed fly.....it'll keep everything from loosening up and spinning around the hook...

ues nothing water based myself....

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"I've often wondered why it is that so many anglers spend so much money on,and pay so much attention to.the details on the wrong end of the fly line.If they took as much care in selecting or tying their flies as they did in the selection of the reel and rod,They might be able to gain the real extra edge that makes it possible to fool a fish that has,in fact,seen it all before" A.K.Best

"Wish ya great fishing"

Bill

Hi CP,

The only thought I can offer that differs from your other responces is regarding the Flexament. I use Aqua Flex because I've developed an allergy to the non-water based stuff after using it for almost 50 years. Yes, it dries slower but I can live with that so I don't have to put up with the negative responce my body has to the chemical based product. Take care & ...

Tight Lines - Al Beatty [url=http://www.btsflyfishing.com:b2958]www.btsflyfishing.com[/url:b2958]

I, like Al, have had enough of the smelly solvent based cements. I've been using water based Angler's Choice (not Softex), which is very thick) thinned with ethanol. Thinning with the alcohol speeds up drying time and it works fine for me.

Al, I was looking at the Aqua Flex and Aqua Head on your site the other day. How are they different? Is one just thicker than the other?

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Joe




[This message has been edited by flyfisherjoe (edited 05 August 2005).]

I forgot to mention that I also use a tying cement that I ordered from Chris Helms. It has an ethyl alcohol solvent and has no toxic solvent fumes. The label says it dries clear and flexible and has all natural ingredients. I think Chris recommends this for spinning and stacking deer hair. It is Fly-Tite by Fly-Rite Inc. I like it, but since I am not as knowledgeable about tying as some of you guys I am not sure if it has minuses.

OK,Well since I had'nt known Softex was a water based product....sure does'nt smell like one thoe......I might be useing one...and Thanks joe, For the thinning tip...mine is getting thick to the point where I was'nt useing it much...

------------------
"I've often wondered why it is that so many anglers spend so much money on,and pay so much attention to.the details on the wrong end of the fly line.If they took as much care in selecting or tying their flies as they did in the selection of the reel and rod,They might be able to gain the real extra edge that makes it possible to fool a fish that has,in fact,seen it all before" A.K.Best

"Wish ya great fishing"

Bill

I was told Softex was Plasti-Dip and xylene....don't know if that's actually true.

I am quite sure that Softex is NOT
"non-toxic". I have never used it. I have a jar of Angler's Choice Soft Body (Thick) as a substitute. It is non-toxic.

I use Loon Outdoors water-based head cement.
I believe it also is non-toxic.

I've only been tying for a couple of years, so please take my 2c worth with a grain of salt.

1. I think shopping for head cement is a little like shopping for a new rod. There are a few good ones, a few bad ones, and a ton of options in the middle which we must pick from according to our own preferences. I've tried my share of head cements and like the basic stuff sold by orvis mostly because my in-laws live near their outlet in VT.

2. I like straight eye hooks for wets and streamers so they swim straight in the water.

3. Like all things in tying, and I guess fishing in general, you can make compromises like going a size up or down on your hackles, but there will be consequences in your finished flies. I use hackles a size large often enough on my attractors that I fish in faster water (when fish are less discriminating because they have little time to inspect a fly) or fish for bluegills (which are just less discriminating in general). On the other hand, I'm picky when tying imitations and smaller flies that I plan to fish in slower or completely still water when the fish will definitely give my fly a longer look before dining.

billknepp and others

Sorry, I said Softex but meant Angler's Choice. They are similar in use but Softex is strong solvent based and Angler's Choice is water based. They both are intended as a replacement for epoxy in making heads but Softex stinks up the whole house and Angler's Choice dries slow.

I take some of the Angler's Choice Thick and thin it with ethanol (ethyl alcohol), readily available as shellac thinner. Thinned a little it is like their "Thin" version and thinned a lot, it makes a good head cement and dries fairly fast. It turns cloudy when thinned but dries clear. That way I get three products in one.

Bill: If you need to thin your Softex you should use toluene. Xylene will work but will not dry as fast.

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Joe




[This message has been edited by flyfisherjoe (edited 05 August 2005).]

For your hackle question here is a general rule of finger. for a dry fly with wings for a size 12 hook use 10 hackle and have the wings a little higher then the hackle. For caddis and use a 12 for a 12. for wet flies I tend to use a 12 for a 12 the that does change pattern but like I said this is a general rule of finger.
Now your gauge does make a difference, I use an old Dette gauge and I know the griffin and whiting gauges do judge different.
But when it all comes down to it if you are tying for your self and your flies are floating right then you have nothing to worry about.

OK, First question:
I don't use head cement, havem't in years
Second question:
dry flies & nymphs=down eye
spinners=up eye
any fly smaller then 26 I use a straight eye
Third question:
using over sized hackle will cause your fly to stand on end or not float properly, also I blocks the hook point.
lastly:
don't get hung up with exact patterns, tie flies with what you have to match the flies hatching, often the ugliest flies catch the most fish.