Financing a New Tier

Situation: Fly fisherman about 40 yrs. old wants walks into a fly fishing store and says he wants to begin to tie flies. He has an budget that he Cannot Exceed. He's not looking for advice such as, 'get in touch with a few hunters so you'll have a source for feathers, furs or hair. His purchase will be right NOW! Your store has a wide variety of items at competitive prices.His entire budget is $250. What would you list as items he must buy and what would you think the total will be?

This is an actual situation>

I’m assuming primarily Trout
At that budget….avoid the Proshops. Go to Cabelas. $280


Vise: Cabelas Super II (Generic entry level vise found in almost every shop. Full rotary, all metal, fully adjustable, C-clamp) $19.99
Gunnison Tool Kit: $20
Cabelas Standard Dry Fly Hook: #8 through #20 $4.99 (1 pack of 25 each) $35
Sally Hensons Hard-as-Nails (Skip the shop and buy it afterwards): $3
Bead Gold Brass Pack (Small and Medium): $8
6/0 Uni-thread (Black, Olive Dun, Rusty Brown, Red) $10.50
Ultra-wire (FINE Gold Silver Copper): $10
Metz Dry Fly hackle pack (Brown,Dun,Grizzly): $40
Hareline Rabbit: Basic assortment box: $20
Squirrel Dubbing (Nymph); $18
Ice-dub (Peacock, Olive, Black, White): 15
Deer body hair (Natural, Black): $16
Deer Comparadun patch (Dun, Natural): $7
Yearling Elk : $6
Moose Body hair patch: 2.50
Pheasant Tail (natural): $7.50
Goose Biot (Brown & Black): $3
Peacock Herl (Bundled): $4.50
1/8” black Razor Foam: $3
Natural Wild Turkey tail: $4.50
Wood Duck Flank: $6
CDC (White, Tan, Dun): $15
Peach Estaz: $3
Marabou (Black): $3

Final Edit. :)

Hooks?

Tim

LOL....You are correct. Left them off. I recommend to all new tyers, begin with dry fly hooks only. Aside from large streamers, everything can be tied just fine on standard dry fly hooks.

Cabelas Standard Dry Fly Hook: #8 through #20 $4.99 (1 pack of 25 each)

Add $35 to the total

$270......I'm close. :)

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Originally Posted by Allan

This is an actual situation>

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What species and what type of fishing? What region? His budget to start or for a year? If he thinks he will get away with just spending $250 for the rest of his life, or even just the winter, tell him to save his money and just buy flies instead. Tools are easy and mostly universal, so they would include: Griffin Superior 2A, 4" Dr. Slick Scissors, Whip Finisher, and Rite Robbin. This leaves about $145 for materials, which could be a little or a lot depending on number of patterns he/she wishes to tie, based on target species. Would NOT recommend scrimping on tools, unless you suspect this is just going to be a dalliance and therefore not worth an investment for the future.

Never tried it myself, but you often see big lots of materials "former tiers" post on eBay.

Granted, you don't know what the final bid might be on this, but might be worth pursuing if you're on that tight a budget.

Can't seem to paste the ebay example here. If you do a search for "fly tying vise", there is a listing about 10 items down which includes a Renzetti vise and a bunch of materials. Current bid 150.

Here is one that includes a lot of materials and a low-end HMH vise which may end up being near his budget. Granted, the "buy it now" price is above, but who knows what it will actually sell for:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Huge-lot-of-...item2c8ecacec1

I'd go for the Eagle Claw hooks less than half the cost and made in the USA. Their quality is absolutely acceptable.
Best reply yet would be to contact an long time tier who could easily set you up with all you need in appreciation for your enthusiasm.

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Originally Posted by whatfly

What species and what type of fishing? What region? His budget to start or for a year? If he thinks he will get away with just spending $250 for the rest of his life, or even just the winter, tell him to save his money and just buy flies instead. Tools are easy and mostly universal, so they would include: Griffin Superior 2A, 4" Dr. Slick Scissors, Whip Finisher, and Rite Robbin. This leaves about $145 for materials, which could be a little or a lot depending on number of patterns he/she wishes to tie, based on target species. Would NOT recommend scrimping on tools, unless you suspect this is just going to be a dalliance and therefore not worth an investment for the future.

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I'd leave out the whip finisher at first (it can come later) but I agree everything else you said.

It would really help if we knew what kind of flies he wants to tie.

My initial post to this thread was poorly worded and had several errors. So I am correcting it here. If this alters something you've written, please correct. Thanks, and here's the corrected version:

Situation: Fly fisherman about 40 yrs. old walks into a fly fishing store and says he wants to begin to tie flies. He has nothing for tying and this initial purchase has a budget of $250 that he Cannot Exceed. He's not looking for advice such as, 'get in touch with a few hunters so you'll have a source for feathers, furs or hair', or 'go to ebay', or 'get the Cabela's catalog'. This purchase will be right NOW! Your store has a wide variety of items at competitive prices. He also states that he's been fly fishing for trout about 15 years and wants to tie flies with Mr. Trout in mind. His entire budget is $250. What would you list as items he must buy and what would you think the total will be?

Oh, this is an actual situation that happened last night.

In that case....my initial post stands. :)

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Originally Posted by NJTroutbum

In that case....my initial post stands. :)

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I believe you exceeded the budget so instead of a 'sale' and a happy customer, you created an unhappy customer going home empty handed.

Ah, so this is just a thought experiment. Thought it was a real question...nevermind...

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Originally Posted by whatfly

Ah, so this is just a thought experiment. Thought it was a real question...nevermind...

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It is a real question, not an experiment, and the situation took place last night.

Not knowing what exactly what his/her needs are in a vague opening statement.....My list is a starting point. A shopping list that would be molded to an individuals needs as you discuss things in the store. :)

I would ask the person what flies they usually fish and which ones they wanted to tie. The materials list would be based on the five to ten flies they most wanted to learn (depending on how much could be used for multiple patterns). I would then recommend the best vice they could afford while still getting a bobbin, two scissors and a hackle pliers. A good enough bodkin is easily made at home as is a hair stacker. By the time they are proficient in tying those flies they will know what they want in other tools and materials.

The more I think about this, the sillier it sounds.
I would guess that most of us started tying with few materials........a decent vise......some hooks......a pair of scissors.....etc.

I began tying nymphs and added new materials each week or so. I didn't expect to have everything I needed all at once to tie everything imaginable.

I doubt the fellow is going to be tying comparaduns, parachutes, divided hackle tip winged dries, etc. right off the bat.

Put all he can afford into a decent vise, a few other tools, some hooks, dubbing, chenille, soft hackle feathers, and something for wing cases and show him how/where to watch YouTube videos of basic, easy flies.

I would have handed him a bottle of powerbait. If he was that inflexible, maybe he needs to do rethink his hobby choice.

I used to hate dealing with that type of customer when I worked at the fly shop.

I agree as a personal approach. I began in the same manner, by recommendation of my initial instructor. I bought the best vise I could afford, solid tools...and the materials to tie the patterns and techniques I had just learned. I then bought materials for the new patterns I wanted....until I had grown enough to dump money on hackle and such. I still have those same tools and vise as well....he must of been on to something. LOL

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Originally Posted by Byron haugh

The more I think about this, the sillier it sounds.
I would guess that most of us started tying with few materials........a decent vise......some hooks......a pair of scissors.....etc.

Put all he can afford into a decent vise, a few other tools, some hooks, dubbing, chenille, soft hackle feathers, and something for wing cases and show him how/where to watch YouTube videos of basic, easy flies.

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Agree! Now, let's get specific and see what you come up with. As stated, the shop has a very wide array of tools, materials, etc. What 'specific' tools would you suggest this man buy? Remember, he's at your store, standing in front of you, and expecting your 'expertise' to guide him along Right Then and There. You do not have an hour or more to rummage through catalogs or hours to ponder your decision. Identify the tools and materials, along with the prices and let's see what you come up with.
Beginner fly tier who fishes for trout in rivers and streams, usually uses a 3, 4 or 5 weight. Lives in the NE and fishes waters in NY, NJ, and PA.

If we are not trying to build a complete Kit, then here is my recommendation to a new tyer.

Vise Regal Inex: $140
Whip Finish:$4 Materilli style
Hackle Pliers:$2 Standard English style
Scissors: $5 3" Micro
Bobbin: $6 Standard Tube
Hair Stacker: $8 Medium

All tools are metal, but not Brand name. Store brand or generic normally, but all metal/brass.

$165 Total Tools

That leaves $85 to discuss the top 10 patterns he currently fishes, and determine what materials will be needed.

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Originally Posted by Allan

It is a real question, not an experiment, and the situation took place last night.

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So, If it happened last night, my question to you is, what did "YOU" tell him? The more I read all this, the more I am thinking he came into your store and posed the question to you. Am I correct? If so, please tell us what you sold him.

I'll try.

Super AA C-clamp vise: $40
Bobbin: $16
Scissors: $10
Hackle Pliers: $7
Whip finisher: $10
Bobbin Threader: $3
Bodkin: $5

Whiting Bugger Pack: $20
Chenille: $2
Strung Marabou: $2.75
Copper Wire: $3
Bead Pack: $2.50
Size 10 3x streamer hooks: $7 (50 pack)

$128.25 total.

When he's done learning the woolly bugger, and if he still wants to continue, he's got plenty of money to buy a hair stacker, elk hair, a half cape, dubbing and some dry fly hooks.

Steven and NJT,

Thanks for those responses. They are reasonable and make sense. As for what I sold the customer, that isn't important. The reason for my question was to get some additional input should, as I hope, this situation arises again. Again, thanks for your suggestions.

Just get some hooks, ie dry or nymph, size 12 or 14 if you're just starting out. Buy some pheasant tail in the color you like, some peacock herl, maybe a few brass beads. If you want to tie a wooly bugger, then get a color of anton yarn you like, about a buck and a half, some bugger packs for about $4 or $5, and size 10 TMC 5262 or 63 hooks and a bead to match the hook. Then get an affordable vice and a few tools and if you have enough $ left get a book to help with begining fly tying.

Wow! I just noticed that, on an annual basis, AG made about 6.75 posts per year and FB even less @ 3.1. Maybe they found something interesting in this topic?

Hey, I noticed you did say what you did over on SGH.

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Originally Posted by NJTroutbum

I?m assuming primarily Trout
At that budget?.avoid the Proshops. Go to Cabelas. $280


Vise: Cabelas Super II (Generic entry level vise found in almost every shop. Full rotary, all metal, fully adjustable, C-clamp) $19.99
Gunnison Tool Kit: $20
Cabelas Standard Dry Fly Hook: #8 through #20 $4.99 (1 pack of 25 each) $35
Sally Hensons Hard-as-Nails (Skip the shop and buy it afterwards): $3
Bead Gold Brass Pack (Small and Medium): $8
6/0 Uni-thread (Black, Olive Dun, Rusty Brown, Red) $10.50
Ultra-wire (FINE Gold Silver Copper): $10
Metz Dry Fly hackle pack (Brown,Dun,Grizzly): $40
Hareline Rabbit: Basic assortment box: $20
Squirrel Dubbing (Nymph); $18
Ice-dub (Peacock, Olive, Black, White): 15
Deer body hair (Natural, Black): $16
Deer Comparadun patch (Dun, Natural): $7
Yearling Elk : $6
Moose Body hair patch: 2.50
Pheasant Tail (natural): $7.50
Goose Biot (Brown & Black): $3
Peacock Herl (Bundled): $4.50
1/8? black Razor Foam: $3
Natural Wild Turkey tail: $4.50
Wood Duck Flank: $6
CDC (White, Tan, Dun): $15
Peach Estaz: $3
Marabou (Black): $3

Final Edit. :)

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Darm!! I want to buy my materials where you do!! ;)

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Originally Posted by Steven

Hey, I noticed you did say what you did over on SGH.

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I just looked and noticed that you're right. Perhaps I offered up that information because they offered some suggestions. (?)

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Originally Posted by Allan

I just looked and noticed that you're right. Perhaps I offered up that information because they offered some suggestions. (?)

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I just want to know what shop to avoid from now on, personally...

Any shop in CA.

simpson, gumpertz and hager? st george hospital? Just what is sgh?

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Originally Posted by Allan

Any shop in CA.

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I can certainly understand why you would want to keep this a secret...

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Originally Posted by herefishy

simpson, gumpertz and hager? st george hospital? Just what is sgh?

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Herefishy,
I presume it is a competing fly tying/fishing forum.

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Originally Posted by herefishy

simpson, gumpertz and hager? st george hospital? Just what is sgh?

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SGH = Sparse Grey Hackle, but I think he meant SGM (Sparse Grey Matter), a site devoted to Catskill fly fishing.

Alan,
I read what you told him. It was eerily similar to what I suggested, even down to the video suggestion........


My recommendation:
"

Put all he can afford into a decent vise, a few other tools, some hooks, dubbing, chenille, soft hackle feathers, and something for wing cases and show him how/where to watch YouTube videos of basic, easy flies"


What he did:
The guy decided on a good quality vise, a few other tools, and some materials to tie wooly buggers...and will practice tying some simple flies..........

I'll repeat. If he's being mentored by an older, experienced tier he should expect to get a great deal of "starting quantities" of material from him and allow him to concentrate on tools. Most of us who have been at the craft for multi-decades have enough material to start our own stores.
In some TV commercials these days we see emphasis placed on comparing your dollar savings and your life expectancy.
Some of us should think the same about our tying material stockpile.
Come on guys, give the new folks a break.

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Originally Posted by redietz

SGH = Sparse Grey Hackle, but I think he meant SGM (Sparse Grey Matter), a site devoted to Catskill fly fishing.

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Whoops!
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I agree 100%. I wouldn't by a thing from a guy that posts such vague information yet wants everyone to chime in. And by the way, what difference does it make how many posts per year a person makes, maybe we are BUSY doing other things than posting! You're really coming off as an AS#!

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Originally Posted by whatfly

I just want to know what shop to avoid from now on, personally...

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by AGrant

I agree 100%. I wouldn't by a thing from a guy that posts such vague information yet wants everyone to chime in. And by the way, what difference does it make how many posts per year a person makes, maybe we are BUSY doing other things than posting! You're really coming off as an AS#!

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Really?
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