Just started messing around with small ( 16-20) size flies. What hackle is used to palmer the collar on these size flies? I have a couple of saddles that have very thin feathers on them, but they seem to be a little too large for the #20's.
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Just started messing around with small ( 16-20) size flies. What hackle is used to palmer the collar on these size flies? I have a couple of saddles that have very thin feathers on them, but they seem to be a little too large for the #20's.
You should be using a cape not a saddle
Check with Denny Conrad for his JV rooster skins. Lots of perfect hackle for smaller flies. I have two of them and they are excellent.
How many midges do you intend to tie, and will there be a color range required?
Check first w'Denny to see if he has some midge capes. If not, your best bet for a few feathers in that range would be capes. Whiting capes have very small hackles at the nape of the neck, but you have to be able to check them first. Just because the feather is very narrow, it doesn't mean the barbs are short- they may just be folded tightly against the stem. Roll or flare them to check for length.
Third, I'd recommend some Whiting 100-paks in midge sizes. You could get a few colors and maybe share some paks and get a wider variety of colors for the same money.
Fourth, find a good friend who's got some Whiting midge saddles and beg or trade just a few off of them. There are so many hackles on a saddle that a few won't be missed, and that will tie dozens and dozens of midges.
5th, check around with tiers for old neck-napes left over after they have used all of the normal hackles. I used to have bags of these, but I gave them away to kid'c clubs. These can be a very inexpensive source for midge hackles, if you can find some with size 20 hackles.
Below are photos from my archives of size 32 midge saddle hackles, and a Whiting midge Cree saddle- nothing larger than an 18, and down to size 32 (Mustad). You could tie for a lifetime and not use up this saddle.
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Thanks for the replies, they are very helpful. And I mis-spoke earlier, I am using capes for my tying. Again, Thanks for all the info, I now know what to ask for when I call Denny!
Beautiful saddle Don. I have several quarter midge saddles, but that one takes the cake.
Don,Quote:
Originally Posted by DonO1
Now tell me you actually tyed some flies on the Mustad 32s using feather(s) from that saddle.
WOW!
Allan
Trying to get a photograph that shows the size perspective is harder than tying the fly. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Allan
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Maybe it would be as good to show some bare hook photos to get an idea of how small a tie it is. The 2nd & 3rd photos shows a #32 Mustad inside a #32 Tiemco. The other tiny hooks are VMC barbless spade-end hooks made from violin wire.
I make my own tying thread from a single filament from the core of a plastic tubular clothes line, and a cut piece is so light it floats away on an air current, just like a real spider's silk line. I load it on a tiny midge bobbin and it's almost invisible. Sent some to Hans so he could try it. Fun stuff. Not very practical, but challenging. One of these days I won't be able to see well enough to tie them any more (naked eye for now, but harder to focus as I grow up). When I get really blind and my fingers don't move so good, I'll still have the 14/0 flies to fall back on.
As you'll notice from the last photo, a lot of the hooks are mis-shapen a little, so I have to re-bend them before I tie on them.
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Don,
I've seen the photos of the flies tyed on Mustad 32s on Hans' site. All are fantastic and some are even more so. I was lucky enough to get a box of those hooks years ago. I've since sold some and given some away (ask Denny). I have not, however, tyed a fly on one - yet! My question was really more about the hackle then your ability to tye those flies. I just didn't think that a saddle could be genetically grown with barbs that small. Amazing
Allan
Wonderful photos!Quote:
Originally Posted by DonO1
I have some size 32, #277 hooks that are the smallest hook ever made that I know of. Yes, I obtained them from Allan, and a few from Hans.
I have never seen hackle gauged to proper size on any saddle for this hook. All of my capes have some that will size properly.
To satisfy my personal interest I got out my mike and measured (with my optivisors on my head) 4 of my 277s.
From center of the shank to the point of the hook I get 0.033. If hackle is supposed to be 1 and 1/2 times the gape measurement
my math says it should be 0.046875. To relate in my mind I know 1/16" = 0.0625 and 1/32" = 0.03125, and 1/64" = 0.015625.
I come up with 3/64" = correct untrimmed hackle length, or 0.046875.
I know a lot of tiers tie with over size hackle and then trim them. It is easy for me to see that trimmed hackle no longer has natures tiny points, which is what a fish sees when looking up at a dry fly, like feet of a natural insect.
Several years ago I had a tier ask me if I really had size 32 hackle or was I full of BS like other breeders he had tried and was not pleased with for size, relating that he felt it was false advertising.
I e-mailed him back and told him I honestly did not know because I could not see well enough to size that small, I only went by what my customers told me. I asked for his ship to address, sent him quite a few of the smallest cape hackles I had, and sent them to him, no charge with a request for him to tell me what he found after he tried them He actually fishes with them in gin clear water and catches very small trout.
Before he contacted me back I read a post he placed here on the BB, relating the same story I am posting above with his results. Find it if you want and read his results. He has become a life long customer of Conranch Hackle. A couple days later he did contact me with his results.
I stick to my statement, I have never seen saddle hackle that will tie a proper size on the 277, from any breeder.
I would have to hold it in my own hands and gauge it myself.
I do not doubt Don O. He is an honest and reputable man. I personally have never seen it.
I do not tie on my hooks, they are for the collector only part of my brain. I do have several tied by far more skilled tiers than my self.
All that I have in my collection have been tied using my cape hackle. They show eyesight and skill I know I do not have.
Denny
Guys,
Just in case you haven't seen flies tyed on Mustad 32s, here's a collection from Hans' site. One thing you may see, among the amazing work of these tyers, is that it appears to these eyes that the hackle on all of the flies where it is used, is oversized. That supports what Denny said in his post. However, I really doubt that anyone viewing these flies, with or without the aid of magnifiers would find fault in their construction. As I said, they are amazing works.
http://www.danica.com/flytier/sfp/sfp.htm
Allan