Theoretical Distance-Casting Question

Ok, don't ask what got me thinking about this, but somehow I got this question in my head:


As every article for beginning casters states, we use fly line instead of mono so that the fly rod will load and do its thing.. I got that, makes perfect sense, but...

Assuming perfect technique (you know.. the opposite end of the spectrum from me http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif ), is it possible, or would it theoretically be possible, to cast farther than the length of the fly line?

Say we're using a 9ft rod. I *think* that it's still possible to cast if the backing/line connection is at the tip of the rod - the fly line is there to load the rod.

But what if we were 20 ft into the backing? Take off the 9ft of rod and that's 11 ft of backing in the air, plus the 100ft or so of fly line (plus leader, tippet, fly). . .

The weight of the fly line is still there to load the rod, but I'm not sure about that backing...

What do ya'll think? Is that theoretically possible, with "perfect" technique?

(I'm not setting a goal for myself, or anything.. hehe.. just had the question pop into mind.)

-MZR

I know folks who can cast into the backing; I'm not one of them. They don't carry the backing in the air, but rather "shoot" the line which pulls the backing along. Normal fly line are around 90 feet in length and I've seen good casters reach 135 feet or more, so do the math.

http://www.myfishingpictures.com/img/053906.gif

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Dan S
"I still don't know why I fish or why other men fish, except that we like it and it makes us think and feel." Roderick Haig-Brown, A River Never Sleeps

Hi Mike,

I believe the standard fly line averages
around 90 feet. While I'm not sure of
overall records, I have heard of FAOL
members at some competitions casting in
excess of 110 feet and perhaps near 120.
My mind is still the steel trap it always
was, just that it's getting harder to open
in my senior years.*G* Warm regards, Jim

See the recent Saltwater thread "Distance", and check out a post by Dudley. There's a link to an article that "classifies" fly casters by how far they can cast.

If that article is to be believed, a "superb" fly caster can throw the fly line plus some backing. If I'm not mistaken, the world record distance cast is well over 200 feet.

Sometime this year, I'm hoping to creep into the fairly good category from the "it's a start" category. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif

The rod is "loaded" or deflected by the casters hand/arm motion, not the fly line. Quicker acceleration = more deflection (loading) and slower accel = less, etc. Try false casting a rod without any line, it deflects (loads),,,,try it faster then slower,,,,your hand/arm motion is causing the bending,,,without a line!

The most efficient weight to cast with a given rod design is within a small window of 35-55ft of fly line outside the rod tip. Additional line (weight or mass) will make it very hard to maintain line speed and form a small loop. You can cast a 3wt line with a 12wt rod and vice versa, not very efficiently of course.

The competition casters will use a 130-140ft fly line for the 5wt category and a very few make a 110-120ft cast, and not consistently.

The longest casts are with shooting heads and a thin mono or braided mono running line. The competition rods are a very special design and would easily shatter if used for actual landing of a fish.

Mark Sedotti uses a factory Scott 9ft 7wt and will cast a shooting head 130-140ft with ease in fishing situations. This is with a 12-15" long fly.

Regards,
FK

I don't think you're answering his question....he's talking about having the fly line plus 11 feet of backing aerialized...not shooting that amount.[or more].

Ok, this may not answer the question either. But I saw a casting demonstration at the Somerset Fly Fishing show. I can't remember the name of the fly caster, but he was mainly a saltwater type. I looked him up on the internet.

But, I remember that he aerialized a shooting head plus a substantial amount of backing and bounced a 7-inch bucktail off a wall at about the 20 foot mark. I would say the wall was maybe 10-15 feet past the end of the casting pool. He did that using a Barnegat Bay cast from his knees! He called that cast something else, but I can't remember what it was.

I think the casting pool was about 90'. That's a bit of a guess, but if a fly line is is 90', you can kind of tell. He wasn't standing at the edge of the casting pool, anyway.

It's not exactly the same thing, but I would call that an existence proof.

BigFlatBrook...maybe we need to define our terms...my understanding is that aerialized means carrying in the air with false casts and then shooting the rest...I'm thinking you are using aerialized to mean shooting in the air.

I believe I saw the same guy...at least the same sort of demo...at Ontario, CA...can't remember his name either ....he was a Sage casting demo person and did all of the above but he shot the backing.

This was from another post, but talks about distances. I know the line for competition is not the normal line that most of us use. I agree, that a person can cast the 90' of line and that takes the backing out. I don't think that the backing has any loading properties, does that make sense?

Steve Rajeff's accomplishments.
"In the Anglers' Fly Distance event, casters are limited to a 9-foot rod and a shooting taper line with a maximum head length of 31 feet and maximum grain weight of 310 grains (10-weight). The tackle is somewhat specialized but similar to what a Northwest steelheader might use on the Sauk, Skagit, or large rivers of British Columbia. Rajeff holds the U.S. record for this event with a distance of 190 feet.
In the Single-handed Fly Distance event, heavier artillery is allowed with up to a 9'9" rod (specialized rods and blanks are normally used), a minimum shooting taper head length of 49' 3", and maximum line weight of 650 grains. Rajeff holds the U.S. record for this event at 238 feet. What he calls his lifetime best cast was in this event at a competition in South Africa where he launched a cast of 248 feet. However, international rules disallow a cast if wind speed near the time of the cast exceeds 8 mph in any direction and the cast was never recorded.




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she who dies with the most toy's wins.

This may address the original question more...it's a Bruce Richards quote...from another thread....

IP: Logged

Bruce Richards
Member posted 24 February 2006 01:47 PM
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Hmm, it appears some misconceptions remain regarding the age old question of DT vs. WF.
Most lines are made to AFFTA weight standards which means that the line must weigh a certain amount in the first 30 ft., excluding any level TIP section. The taper IS included in the weight.

Most DT and WF lines have very similar front tapers, there is no generalization that can be made regarding tapers that would be accurate. Some DTs have short tapers, some long, as do WFs. Assuming that a DT and WF line have the same taper, they will cast exactly the same until the rear taper of the WF line is out of the rod tip. There is no way anyone could tell the difference between these lines except that the WF caster would be holding smaller line in his hand than the DT caster.

The 30 ft. length is often mentioned when talking about roll casting WFs. This length means nothing in most cases, except that it is the length measured. Nearly all WF lines have heads that are longer than 30 ft. Another thing to remember is that roll cast distance must include leader and rod length. A WF line with a 30 ft. head and cast with 9 ft. rod and 9 ft. leader will roll cast effectively to 48 ft. (30+9+9). So, a typical WF line with a 38 ft. head (common for a 5 wt. "trout" line)will roll cast effectively to well over 50 ft. Most casters cannot roll cast that far so it makes no difference for most anglers which taper they roll cast.

DT lines can be cast extreme distances by talented casters. Some casters are capable of carrying an entire DT line in the air, making it a very long ST, in essence. Yes, the extra weight of the long, large dia. line loads the rod more, but good casters know to open their rod arc and make their strokes very smooth. Dropping 2-3 line sizes lighter than the rod is rated for makes casting DTs a long ways even easier.

For fishing use most anglers are better off with a WF line, unless distance beyond 50 ft. is rarely needed. Beyond that distance, being able to shoot the small diameter running line of a WF makes long fishing distances easier to achieve.

If a DT and WF line have the same front taper, their "weighted zone" is the same, until you get to the rear taper of the WF. Beyond that point, the DT will remain heavier due to its larger diameter. It is easy to see where the weight in a line is, just look at the profile, where it is big, it is heavy, where it is small, it is light. This assuming lines of a single specific gravity, not sinking tip lines.

Joe, switching to DT lines for your short distance casting will gain you no benefit. Again assuming similar tapers, there will be no difference in how the two designs will cast at short range. As much as I'd like to sell more lines, save your money for a casting lesson if you're having trouble!

The average +- weight tolerance is about 5%, not 10%. A very talented caster might be able to tell the difference between a line made at either end of the tolerance, but for most people they will feel and perform exactly the same. Certainly it makes sense to try different lines on your rods to see whether you might like a 4 wt. or 6 wt. better than a 5, but usually performance problems originate with the caster, not the gear. If you question this, give your troublesome gear to a better caster to get his/her opinion.

I hope this doesn't just confuse the issue more........
Bruce

And here's the thread...
[url=http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/Forum1/HTML/016379.html:aac24]http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/Forum1/HTML/016379.html[/url:aac24]

and here's the reference in Flyfishing Basics....

It's in the "Flyfishing 101" section under Flyfishing Basics"



[This message has been edited by ducksterman (edited 12 April 2006).]

Ducksterman,

I think the guy I saw was

11:15 Mark Sedotti - Adding Yards to Your Cast - Scott Rod Pro

The web site for the fly fishing show already points to 2007, but google has the old pages cached, and I pulled it from there. I'm pretty sure that's the demo I saw.

I could have sworn he was false casting with a bunch of backing out beyond his rod tip when he did that. I remember thinking, "Wow, I didn't know you could do that"!

But, maybe what looked like backing to me wasn't. He did change lines when he did that particular demo, though. No matter how he did it, I thought it was pretty spectacular (as you can tell). http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif

BFB...you're right that was him and I guess he was Scott instead of Sage.

I pulled up the show web site before the last post but didn't think of Google...darn they're changing the show City in 2007 so I probably won't go next year.

He did indeed put on a heck of a demo and was showing different techniques that were gong against some common beliefs...maybe you're right.

I tried to find a email address for Mark Sedotti. But he lives in Greenwich, CT. Maybe I could just drop by and ask him on the way to the Housatonic. I'm going Friday. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif

Actually, I just asked Scott Rods to pass on to him the question about aerializing into the backing. Maybe they will and maybe they won't.

But, can't hurt, I guess.

I've seen two of my buddies cast regularly into the backing, but shooting the line as has been said. I wish I could do it. I've seen my mentor Dr. Rene Boltelho cast a 3 wt Sage TXL into the backing! They say 60 ft is the minimum you need for lakes, and 70 ft. is better. Note that none of these is into the backing. I still look forward to the day I reach the backing (90-100 ft.) Find comfort in the fact that most cannot do it. -Migs

Here is a current article by Mark Sedotti. [url=http://reel-time.com/feature/sedotti/:19c3e]http://reel-time.com/feature/sedotti/[/url:19c3e]

He sometimes posts on this board on the fly tying forum

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"The day after tomorrow is the third day of the rest of your life"

I have tried to do it before with a 30 foot section of fly line. The loop has collapsed right away. I think there is an inbalance of weight and the line seems to "hinge" at the portion of backing in the air.

During the demos that I have seen Mark Sedotti, give, he has been using shooting heads for those long casts. 30ft heads I think when I have seen him cast. The line that might look to some like backing, is a thin shooting line, which is more robust than backing.

To properly cast a shooting head for best shooting and hence distance performance, the entire head must be outside the rod tip. If the head-shooting line junction is right at the tip, it will clatter through the tip top, during the casting stroke (assuming a double haul) and impair the cast. So some of the shooting line must be outside the tip top. This is typically referred to as the 'overhang'. Good shooting head casters can carry 8 - 10 feet of overhead during the cast. More typical is 2-4 feet while fishing, though some anglers I know carry more and others less.

That sounds like the answer to me. It looked like the shooting head was knotted or looped to the (what I now know to be) running line.

Oh well, I'm sure that wasn't the first stupid question he's been asked. But, we learned something -- or I did anyway -- and that makes it worth it (usually).

Yes, it is possible to carry more than a full fly line false casting. However once you get into the backing out the rod tip it becomes very difficult to keep the rod loaded and line in the air for some reason.

It doesn't seem to matter if it is a 60 foot free line that you get on a Bass Pro rod or a full 100 foot XXD with a G Loomis Max Line Speed.

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[url=http://www.flyfishingarkansas.com:aeab9]http://www.flyfishingarkansas.com[/url:aeab9]

I would love to see the guy/rod that is capable of arealising a full fly line

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Born to fish, forced to work.

OK,

I got Mark Sedotti's email address from Scott and I emailed him. Who knows, maybe he'll answer. He does post here sometimes I guess. Of course, I've emailed a few other guys who post here and never gotten an answer. Maybe they don't answer flakes!

(But I just love the internet!)

[This message has been edited by BigFlatBrook (edited 13 April 2006).]

JC and I watched Randi Swisher at an indoor competition some time back, and he was carrying an amazing amount of line in the air, probably 85 feet,(with a 5 wt rod) and I kept thinking "let it go" but he didn't!
I later learned he was watching his forward loop for an 'exact' look, and when he had it that was it. This was standard fishing gear, not a shooting line or head.

I think a lot of good casters can aerialize that much line, but to keep it in the air for more than one or two casts is another matter.

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LadyFisher, Publisher of
FAOL

On the same topic, Randi won that day, beating out Tim Rayjeff...I don't recall the distance.

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LadyFisher, Publisher of
FAOL

LF,

"This was standard fishing gear, not a shooting line or head."

Do you know if it was WF or DT?

WF seems to be the standard in these competitions. And so you know, the leaders are all the same too....

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LadyFisher, Publisher of
FAOL

Mike, interesting question. And the answer is, it all depends..... The first problem is that a typical fly line is 90 ft. long and that is about the limit of what the best casters can carry with 9 ft. rod (long rods carry more line). So, the real problem as posed isn't so much with carrying backing, but with getting to the backing in the first place. Lets shorten the line to just 75 ft.....
If the line is shorter than the caster can carry then yes, it is possible for a good caster to carry a whole fly line and some backing, but there is a limit. It won't be possible to carry more than before (90 ft.), it is the size, shape and speed of the loop that determines that. The loop must be moving fast and it must not have much wind resistance (tight, tip pointed, top and bottom legs parallel) for a long line to be carried.
In essence a WF carried into the backing becomes a long shooting head. Shooting heads can be carried with considerable "overhang" by talented casters who are able to throw very good loops so the line stays very straight. Slack kills casts made with long line carry and it require exceptional skill to carry a long line with little slack.
So, it can be done, but rarely, if ever, is done because 90 ft. is about the limit of what most very talented casters can carry (and I mean the top 3-4 casters I know)and they will most likely cast farther carrying a bit less.
Bruce

Got a real nice email back from Mark Sedotti. He says that the Somerset cast was made with a Scott STS 9 weight, a Corland LC 13 lead core (30 feet), and Cortland braided mono as a running line. But he uses other setups, as well.

Also that he has about 2 feet of overhang when he false casts. I remembered more than that but memories are what they are.

And the fly was not a 7" bucktail, but a 10" synthetic that he calls Sedotti's Slammer.

He calls the cast a "Sayonara Sling", and that his longest Sayonara Sling was 172 feet with an 11 weight.

What is braided mono? In the world of spin fishing that seems oxymoronic

It was new to me also. But if you google on it, you'll find a fair amount of information. Cortland says it was designed to resist tangles. Apparently, some people use it to tie extended bodies -- damselflies, to be specific.

I believe when Mark Sedotti was demoing that cast he was also demonstrating a technique he came up with whereby he married his forearm to the rod [rotating his wrist in a way I don't remember] and thus created a longer lever...as I said earlier he was presenting some unconventional techniques....and proving them with the casting.

Thanks for pursuing that.

Braided mono is a line made from - braiding mono (which is not the same as furling)

It is used commonly for leader butts and for shooting lines, and for making loop connectors. Also extended bodies as previously mentioned. Maybe other uses that I am not aware of also. It comes is various strengths and colors. 35lb braided mono, for example, is braided from lighter strands of mono to get a composite total strength. Cortland and Gudebrod are two manufacturers.

You can also use it to join two sections of a broken flyline.

It casts pretty well as a shooting line but it does blow around a bit in the wind, its inherent stretch can impair long distance hook sets, and it can be rough on the hands.

He said the braided mono resists tangling, and that was an important attribute for casting demos.

Also, that he was starting to use the Frog Hair shooting line and that he liked it, but couldn't say how well it fished but would be finding out soon. He liked it well enough to recommend trying it.

Sounds like he was shooting....

was there a breeze behind him...118ft. Fantastic accomplishment!