What an Honor

Just received in today's mail a packet of nine flies tied by Jeff Hamm, with detailed recipes, tying instructions, and fishing suggestions.

These flies are beautiful.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...001_edited.jpg

This is step one in an international collaboration - to see if Jeff's flies, tied for his New Zealand trout, can catch Cutthroat trout here in SE Idaho.

It really is an honor to be part of this challenge. Will do my best to hold up my end. Headed out tomorrow to one of my favorite cutthroat trout streams with only Jeff's flies.

Thanks Jeff.

John

What a great idea, I can't wait to see the results. FAOL rules!!!!

Jeff's tying skills are exceptional!! Beautiful flies! John...are you SURE you wanna get those WET?? :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FishnDave

Jeff's tying skills are exceptional!! Beautiful flies! John...are you SURE you wanna get those WET?? :D

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Dave -

That's the deal. Jeff really wants to know if these will work here ( and so do I ), and I can't accomodate him without getting them wet.

The only problem is, if they do better than my usual flies, I'll have to consider learning a whole new approach to fly tying, invest in a bunch of materials, and spend a lot of time at the vice practicing !!

On the other hand, I did just START OVER, and my fly boxes are all empty, with one exception. So this is a great time to be in this experiment with Jeff.

John

Hi John,

Glad the flies have arrived safe and sound! This is an interesting collaboration all in the name of science! ha! I've never had a chance to fish for cut throat, and with John's wonderfully written and documented fishing reports, this is my way of fishing vicariously through him. Anyway, below I've listed the names for the patterns as laid out in John's photo above:

Vanessa* --------- Ewe Wasp/Jock Scott ------ Hammlim Minnow*
Taihape Tickler ---- March Invicta* ------------- Red Setter
Water Cricket ----- Copper Dorothy ------------- Stewart's Dun Spider

The two with asterisks are my own patterns. The Vanessa is named after my wife, and was one I put together when tying up some salmon hairwing and featherwing patterns for when I next fish back home in Nova Scotia (next year I'm hoping).

The Hammlim Minnow produced my personal best (7 1/4 lbs brown trout) on the first day I used it. It's also one of my most productive lake flies, and has caught both browns and rainbows during daylight and night fishing.

The Ewe Wasp is the New Zealand name for a fly that is derived from the Jock Scott. It even calls for Jungle Cock cheeks, but I don't have any feathers small enough for these size 12 hooks. This fly is mentioned in some of the older books on NZ fishing (The Flies in My Hat by Greg Kelly is a good one).

The March Invicta is just a combination of the march brown and the Invicta. Dubbed hare's fur body, palmered hackle, etc. A nice buggy fly that has worked well for me. It's hard to call this my own pattern, but I've yet to come across a dressing that replicates it; though I'm sure it's been done.

The Copper Dorothy is one of a series. Basically, any fly tied with a grizzle hackle tied down along the hook shank, and with a grizzle hackle collar, is called a Dorothy. If the body is yellow, it's a yellow Dorothy, etc. Typcially, the tail is red, though I like blue on the copper ones. The only fish I've caught from Roto's Bend (my name) in the Waiteti stream was a 4lbs rainbow on a size 10 Copper Dorothy. Roto's Bend is often full of trout, but they are often very reluctant to take.

Red Setters are very popular in larger sizes fished in the lakes. You can change the front section to green for an Irish setter.

The Taihape Tickler (pronounced Tie-happy) is a pukeko style fly, where the wing is from a New Zealand Swamp hen. The blue has shown up nicely in John's photo, something I've never been able to do well. Basically, this was designed years ago by a fellow who combined the body of a mallard and claret iwth the wing from another popular NZ night fly, Craig's nighttime.

The Water cricket is the first pattern listed in Pritt's book and is one that has done me really well in some of the clear spring fed creeks. The Stewart's Dun spider is from the Practicle Angler, another old book from the 1800s on angling, which is not as well known as the black spider. Both of these are great flies fished upstream to fish taking just under the surface.

- Jeff

Thanks FishnDave!

To be honest, none of these patterns are tricky, they just take a bit of practice to get the proportions right. The tricky bits for the Ewe Wasp and the Vanessa is getting the topping to sit properly. I've only recently been adding toppings and it can be challenging. But, as with all things, when it works it there is a pleasant sense of accomplishment, coupled with the thought "but I can do better". The Red Setter, Copper Dorothy, and Taihape Tickler are really examples of "styles", that with simple changes of colour become different patterns. These "styles" are quite popular here in NZ. For example, the Red Setter, if tied with black squirrel tail and black hackles becomes one of the "fuzzy wuzzy series"; specifically an orange fuzzy wuzzy. If, however, you use grey squirrel tail and grizzle hackle, it would be one of the "dappled dogs" - an orange dapple dog. (Although some people argue that the dapple dogs must be tied with flourecent bodies, we won't be quite so pedantic on that point). There are hundreds of flies tied in the basic manner of the Dorothies. In particular a yellow Dorothy is a popular day time fly, while a red Dorothy is considered a good night fly). The New Zealand approach to feather wing streamers was to use a regular length hook and bind the wing down along the shank while in North America, longer hooks were used and the wing is only tied in at the head and left to stream free. Both are ways to try and combat the problem of the wing wrapping around the bend when you cast them. Probably the most popular pattern of this style would be Parson's Glory (red tuft tail, body yellow, rib silver, wing and hackle honey grizzle). Another really popular one is a Grey Ghost (not the Carrie Stevens pattern), which is a red tuft, silver body & rib, wing and hackle of grey hackle. The pukeko style flies have fewer patterns, and I know of only about 5 or 6. Pukeko also have black feathers, and most patterns use either the blue or the black. A feather from an English magpie could be used as a substitute for the black. In both cases, the wing usually requires 2 or 3 feathers to be laid in together. In small sizes (size 10 and under) these can be used as beetle immitations.

All sorts of patterns can be created by variations of body colour and what kind of feather you use for the hackle for the spiders. In some ways, these are trickiest of the lot because the temptation is to over dress them. In fact, the hackle on the Water Cricket is a bit much. However, as it is a starling feather, which the trout often damage when they take it, after a few fish it should be just right! A fly that only getts better as it gets worse! nice!

Anyway, thanks again for the compliments. I figure, if I can tie a reasonably neat example of these then anyone can. It really just takes practice. I also tie quite slowly, and make a concentrated effort to try and make them as neat as I can. I don't always succeed, but then, I don't post those ones either! :)

- Jeff

Wow, those are some fine looking ties! I also happen to like the looks of the irons they're tied on.

Well done Jeff. Very well done!

Jeremy.

Wow!

Beautiful flies, and I really liked the stories behind them. Good luck with them, but it sure would be hard to actually tie one on and risk it's loss. But, it is in the name of science I suppose. Looking forward to the fishing report. I'm betting the cuts will fight each other to get to them. Great stuff, thanks for posting. John, you're a lucky man, and Jeff you're a heck of a tyer. Well done!

peregrines

Jeff,

I can attest the the fish catching ability of the Water Cricket and Dun Spider. Both were go to flies for VEE and myself at the Idaho Fish-In. Casting a damp fly downstream to rising trout is great fun. The takes are splashy like with a dry fly, but very solid hookups, like swinging a wet fly. Incidentally, John, that's the way I fished your wet fly version of the October Caddis. Same great hook ups.

I managed to sacrifice a couple of your other flies to the water gods on the Selway while trying to dredge some big ones out of those deep blue holes.

The remainder, I'll be dressing copies of and fishing them.

Hi Jeremy,

Thanks. The top row hooks are Teimco tmc200R size 12. I spotted those when I was picking up some more spey hooks to tie salmon flies on and realised they would be perfect for tying trout sized versions. They are also good for stimulators. I've not fished any of these yet, so I'm not sure how heavy the hook is, so it may end up that a bit of weight will need to be added.

The other two rows are a New Zealand brand of hook, called Black Magic. I really like these hooks, they are good and strong, with a very small barb, and just generally nice to tie on.

- Jeff

Thanks peregrines! I'm hoping the cuts are all over them as well. If anyone can do it, then John will make them work.

- Jeff

Hi REE,

Glad to hear the Water Cricket and the Dun Spider was working well for you and VEE. The water cricket with a burnt orange body is good too. I'll tie some on heavy wire hooks, to fish them deeper, and some on dry fly hooks, to fish just in or under the surface film. They both work well anywhere in the water column. I really enjoy spiders on small streams.

- Jeff

Jeff and John,

For those contemplating the effectiveness of old flies, here's one of VEE's fish taken on a size 14 Baillie's Spider. (I believe Baillie developed his spider around 1830 or so.)
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s...8/IMGP1560.jpg

Hi REE,

Nice fish VEE picked up there! Indeed, spiders tempt some good sized fish.

- Jeff

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...015_edited.jpg

'Nuff said.

John

P.S. Had a great day. Will put a new post on the Fishing Reports Forum on the SE Idaho Streams with some details and pics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeffHamm

Hi Jeremy,

Thanks. The top row hooks are Teimco tmc200R size 12. I spotted those when I was picking up some more spey hooks to tie salmon flies on and realised they would be perfect for tying trout sized versions. They are also good for stimulators. I've not fished any of these yet, so I'm not sure how heavy the hook is, so it may end up that a bit of weight will need to be added.

The other two rows are a New Zealand brand of hook, called Black Magic. I really like these hooks, they are good and strong, with a very small barb, and just generally nice to tie on.

- Jeff

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Jeff,

I'm sure those 200R's will do just fine but they have been called into discussion before from some fellows on my home board who have had trouble with them straightening out some.

If I recall correctly TMC markets them as a lighter wire hook (I've used them for hoppers and crickets) so for a wet I agree they "might" need a bit of mass added.

And that's what I noticed about your Black Magic hooks (thanks, I'd never heard of them before now), they have that "hefty look" about them that I prefer in a wet.

Beautiful ties. I would be mighty proud...!!! Makes me want to hit my vise.

Jeremy.

That's a great result for sure! I must say, I always recommend the Water Cricket to anyone who likes to fish North Country Spiders. I'm grinning a big one. Thanks a lot John. Must go read your full report now. :)

- Jeff

Hi Jeremy,

Hmm, I was a bit worried about that. The extra length would increase the leverage and they do seem a bit more light wire. I'm used to the Black Magic hooks, and these are their "A" series, designed for "wet flies". You're right, they are good solid hooks, ideal for wets and nymphs. They have nice dry fly hooks too, which are lighter wire, but not overly thin. Makes them a bit heavy for some people's tastes in dry fly hooks, but they are good quality, no nonsense hooks. Some people look down their nose at them because Black Magic is mostly known for it's salt water bait gear, but me, I like them because they have all the features I like: strong, small barb, good size gap, etc.

- Jeff

Thought I should add a couple notes here about the flies. Today I really only fished the Water Cricket. I did have the Dun Spider on long enough to hook but not land one fish - but the Cricket was the workhorse.

For the most part, I was fishing the water, in several places where fish had shown themselves. I did get one cutt casting back to his rise, and he came up for the Cricket without hesitation. After something like ten fish, the Cricket looks like new. No doubt it would account for more fish if I chose to use it again. But, more likely, I will retire it to a spot over my fly tying desk.

That leaves eight flies to work with. I'm not confident that the Dun Spider will work well on the bigger water that I will be fishing for the rest of the year. Will probably use it trailing a big stonefly nymph, or maybe a weighted prince nymph on the South Fork. Who knows, it might take some whitefish along with trout ??

Can't wait to get some of those streamers out on the Henry's Fork and the South Fork for our fall browns. Maybe Friday on Henry's Fork ?? In the snow ??

John

Hi John,

I look forward to seeing how the streamers perform. From your photos, I think the spiders were definatly the right choice for the water you were fishing. The Taihape Tickler could have been an option, but it might be a bit late in the year for beetles and such? As for fishing the spiders in larger water, well, I've had some luck fishing a team of 3 in some fairly large riviers. Mind you, the fish were up on the fin and feeding near the surface, so difting a team of spiders through the rise was a no brainer! Swinging some of the streamers sounds like the wiser approach.

- Jeff

P.S. Glad to hear the water cricket held up so well! Sometimes their teeth can catch in the floss and things tear things apart. Otherwise, one only tends to lose the odd fibre or two from the hackle. I purposefully overdressed the hackle a bit so that it would only improve in that respect. If you decide to tie a few up, take note of how the body is very short, ends above the point of the hook, certainly no further back than half way to the barb. This, I think, helps it cut through the suface film to fish just sub surface.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...001_edited.jpg

Henry's Fork Brown, second one taken with this fly today.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...008_edited.jpg

Unfortunately, just after I took this brown, I lost the fly on an errant backcast.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...010_edited.jpg

Henry's Fork Rainbow

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...014_edited.jpg

That was the first fish I caught with Jeff's creation, the first of two bows and six browns taken with the Minnow. Also had another four or five solid hits that didn't hook up.

I would say the Hammlim Minnow was a solid hit on the Henry's Fork this afternoon.

Hi John!

The Hammlim Minnow has been good to me too! I'm glad to see it's working well for you too. I generally pull it out for lake fishing, but now I must remember to take it out on the rivers. You've got a great collection of species available in your area.

- Jeff

Nice flies Jeff, you have been very busy tying these beauties. Have you got any idea how long it takes you to tie one fly? I am slow - it can take me a while to tie a good fly if it is intricate.

Labours of love and total enjoyment, that is unless I embed my fingers or arms (yes I have done this - and it really is painful in the arms) on the hooks *hehehe*. I still have a long way to go to be a really good tyer.

Jeanne

For an update on our collaboration, see the new thread on the Fly Anglers Online Forum. Also, there will be a new post on the Fishing Reports Forum for the South Fork of the Snake.

Hi Jeanne,

Hmmm, it took me about 15-20 minutes to tie one today. But, I was also baking an apple pie so was getting up and down to check it. Also, I keep all my gear and materials in a tool box, so there's a lot of delay to find the next feather. If I take it all out to organise what I need, my daughter ends up playing with all the spools and feathers! So, if I had everything out and ready to go, it would probably take about 10-15 minutes to tie one. Well, spiders take about two minutes, but the ones with more bits take 10-15.

- Jeff

Jeff,

Those two flies of your design....could there be a recipe posted somewhere for those. Would be interested to try them (especially the Vanessa) as a steelhead fly.

REE

Hi REE,

Here are the Dressings:
Vanessa:
Tip: flat gold tinsel
Tag: Lavender Floss (DMC embroidery floss, rayon # 30211)
Tail: Golden Pheasant Crest
Body: wine/claret floss (DMC embroidery floss, rayon, #33685)
rib : flat silver tinsel
throat: guinnea fowl
wing: Mallard dyed woodduck
Topping: Golden Pheasant crest

Hammlim Minnow:
tag: flat gold tinsel
Tip : yellow floss
Tail: golden pheasant crest
body: flat silver tinsel
rib : silver wire
throat: red hackle fibres
Wing : fox squirrel tail
cheeks: shoulder feathers from the wing of a golden pheasant, or woodcock; in the one I sent John (in the photo) I used a red body feather from my golden pheasant skin.

I've tied the H-L without the fancy tail end bits, and just used a straight tail of yellow hackle fibres, and it works well dressed that way too. But, at the moment anyway, I'm really taken with the fancy salmon fly bits and bobs additions. Strange, because I'm also taken with the simplicity of the spiders. Go figure!

-Jeff

Thanks, Jeff. I'm off to the sewing shop in the AM.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...022_edited.jpg

Fished the Taihape Tickler this afternoon on the South Fork.

First fish -

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...024_edited.jpg

Second, and last, fish -

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...026_edited.jpg

I won't be fishing the other flies that Jeff sent on the big rivers. So this will be the final post from me on this thread.

I want to thank Jeff for initiating this experiment. I learned some valuable things, fishing these small streamers on our big water, something I wouldn't have done if he hadn't sent me these flies.

It's been a great four days for me. Hope you've enjoyed going along.

John

Bravo John. For someone who was trying out some new flies, and new techniques, you sure pulled off some nice fish. I've really enjoyed following your trips. And, I think you're right on the other flies being a bit small for this water. But, next spring, some of your spring creeks will be ready again ...

Thanks for the great reports.

- Jeff

John: wow... very pretty fish, are they considered big for where you are fishing?

Jeff: very beautifully tied flies! i'll definately tie up some for my trip to New Zealand in December(flying into auckland)! would it be safe to assume that these would be extremely effective in the Auckland/taupo area?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by freshwaterpirate

John: wow... very pretty fish, are they considered big for where you are fishing?

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You have a PM.

John

Hi Freshwaterpirate,

I tend to fish the smaller streams. However, I've done pretty well in lakes with flies not much bigger than these. I rarely fish anything on a hook larger than a size 10 2x length shank (so, about size 8 I guess). However, in NZ larger flies are commonly fished in the lakes and some of the big water rivers (like the big rivers in Taupo). John's done pretty well in some larger rivers with them, but he also knows those rivers really well. His reports have demonstrated how knowing the river is really important.

As for the patterns involed, you won't find many of these in the fly shops, and those that you do will be in larger sizes. The patterns in the shops will serve you well though. If you tie your own, and if you plan to fish the Tongariro (which I can't spell I'm afraid, but I think it's right now?), then you could tie some of these up on larger hooks; say size 8s or even 6s, and I think they would do you really well.

Nymphing is by far the most popular way to fish here. It often involves throwing some very very heavy nymphs, with a smaller one attached. Streamer fishing (called lure fishing here), on a full sinking line, is probably the next most popular though.

- Jeff