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Makes me sick...
"A Norfolk Southern Railway train derailment that morning near the north-central Pennsylvania town of Gardeau, McKean County, spilled a highly toxic chemical into Portage Run, an "exceptional value" wild trout stream and tributary of the Driftwood Branch, and Mr. Zoschg was following its progress downstream."
Link:
[url=http://www.postgazette.com/pg/06187/703720-113.stm:3cddd]http://www.postgazette.com/pg/06187/703720-113.stm[/url:3cddd]
I read every word, twice. Really glad that the cars have been removed and the trains are runnung again. We know what a joke an investigation will be.
How disgusting! That was one of my favorite fisheries! Did it effect the reservoir? I agree with J.C. The investigation will be a white wash. Norfolk Southern is big bucks in Pa and our legislature will slap their wrists then let them go. That is the second derailment and spill this week for Norfolk Southern in Pa that impacted the environment. The other was a chlorine spill in the Lancaster county and Hershey area. One hopes, however futile, that this is enough to trigger a serious N.T.S.B. investigation into Norfolk Southern's operating, safety and maintenance procedures.
Still wouldn't replace the horrible damage to the fisheries.
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Eric "nighthawk"
American veteran and proud of it!
Dear JC and Nighthawk,
C'mon guys, don't be so cynical.
Remember back in the early 1990's when a similar spill occured in Northern California on the upper Sacramento River?
The railroad had their feet held to the fire for that one. They were fined many millions of dollars and forced to rebuid the tracks at the site of the crash at their own expense.
If that doesn't happen in this case I guess I will finally concede that PA and it's residents really don't care about their environment. I'm not ready to concede yet, I really think the people will be compensated for this.
I do have to admit that I hope I'm just not whistling past the graveyard.
Best Wishes,
Avalon
I work for Union Pacific, and for us if this happened the feds would definately be all over it insuring tht everything is made right. Hopefully it will be true for Norfolk. That was Union Pacific on the Sacramento, and far as I know the fishing has made a come back. Dont be passive write your Congressman as well as the FRA.
Guess I'll have to let the father in law know...If he does not already...He's from Emporium originally... and is there quite often with his parents...Have a reunion there this month on the 29th....Is Parker Dam in any way going to be effected in this???...I'm not exactly familiar with that area of the state. Only been there once,
For last years reunion...
Wish they'd restrict at least the amount of liquids that could be transported by rail, If not the hazardousness of them....This was my first q's of the Hershey incident...what might have been spilt....which I did not get any real answers to...
Compensation is not my issue. Keeping the damn tracks in proper shape so there are no spills! THAT is what needs to be done. DO NOT FINE THEM. Make them bring the rails up to proper standards and run the operation correctly. There is no way to bring back the stream, or negate the damage done. If they are fined they will be less able to fix things! Fire the president and give him a few years in jail. Harsh? Not in my book. He screwed up. I am not kidding. Think the next president will allow spills to happen?
Stories like this one make me sick and then angry. I?m no expert on rail transportation, but in addition to the rails the condition of the various tank cars has to be maintained and periodically inspected. Such cars are supposed to be designed, maintained and inspected so they can survive a certain amount of impact without losing their contents. I wonder if that had been done and what condition those cars were in? Or how fast the train was traveling? Perhaps they put the sodium hydroxide into a car of lesser design or strength not designed or allowed to transport that given material. JC?s comment on filing criminal charges against managers and executives is not unheard of. This has occurred (yes, jail time) in incidents that have resulted in death or serious injures of employees where negligence has been proven. Why not same for these types of incidents? If somebody?s rear end is on the line it makes a difference.
I guess I have to side with JC on this one. What good will fining do? The fish are all dead. What amount of money can do anything to replace that? 20 miles of stream???? What about the economic implact on that county?? I personally think N&S officials, from the top right on down to the bottom, Should be brought to the site of this spill and made to rebuild the tracks by hand, and made to do that every time a derailment because of track conditions happens. Of course that's all fantasy thinking because as long as these guys get their very large paychecks and pension pay outs in the mail, they could give a rat's @$$ about the water, fish, people, or anything else.
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These are the idle thoughts that posses a man's mind when he's not able to fish.
As a somewhat disinterested party( I don't live or fish there), I feel I can comment. Why play the "blame the corporation" game till the investigation is over?. Maybe this tragedy was caused by some low-life vandals wanting to see a big bang? The "evil" corporation is not always to blame nor is it always "evil".
Mark
[This message has been edited by Marco (edited 09 July 2006).]
I am disheartened by this...my grandfater with his 5 boys fished these waters on many occasions..this is just horrifying. My dad now takes my nephew to these waters, well, used to take my nephew... fines will do no good, can it even be cleaned up...how many more waters need to be polluted before something is done to restrict how much poison they carry, or the quality of their rails...vandals is phooey, they should be inspected more tediously, for that purpose...if they know a train is going through, inspect the rails it will travel, first hershey, now this one...come on now, something is obviously wrong with the "job" their doing, maybe they do need jail time to think about it.
Dear Board,
FYI, the train derailed because the engineer was speeding down a 30 mph grade at 68 mph according to some railroad people who posted on another forum. The tracks had nothing to do with the accident. It was a runaway train.
Norfolk Southern needs to be held accountable and fined heavily, if for no other reason than it might make them think more about safe operation. They derailed two trains in less than a week. They can't get a pass on this.
Best Wishes,
Avalon
[This message has been edited by Avalon (edited 09 July 2006).]
I agree with J.C. Also, I am not here to bash Norfolk Southern. In no way do I excuse Norfolk Southern for it's responsibilities in the accident. However, I will tell you that Norfolk Southern took over a very near out of business Conrail. They saved thousands of jobs and our rail system here in Pa. Norfolk Southern used their own equipment to work with the N.T.S.B. and F.R.A. to conduct test crashes to promote vehicle rail crossing safety. This was done, in part , at their Enola yard about fifteen miles from my home. The tests help improve railroad crossing safety by pointing out flaws of the railroads and motor vehicle operators. The tests were featured on the Discovery Channel. I have no doubt that Norfolk Southern has saved many lives by conducting these tests. That's what makes this even more upsetting to me.
As I said in no way does any of this excuse Norfolk Southern for their responsibility here. I am quite upset with them. In addition to jail time I think that Norfolk Southern should be made to fund the entire clean up AND complete rehabilitation, if possible, of the damaged habitat no matter how great the cost or how long it takes.
Having been an aviator I will say that the N.T.S.B. is one of the best, most professional organizations I have ever worked with. They will tell you that over 90% of these accidents are caused by human error and not equipment failure but, before we go after the engineer, we need to let the N.T.S.B. determine if there was a mechanical failure. Trains are known to lose their dynamic braking system from time to time.
Whatever the cause I believe that the N.T.S.B. will find the truth. This will allow the proper punishment of any Norfolk
Southern employees that are at fault.
Norfolk Southern will be punished. It remains to see to what extent they are punished.
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Eric "nighthawk"
American veteran and proud of it!
Not a good situation for sure. I live in Potter County and not too far away from the spill. It will surely impact tourism in that area for years to come. I never got a chance to fish over there but heard from some of the people who live here that the fishing was excellent.
I am not a railways engineer or anything, But I've dismantled enough of the cars in question. Gondola's, Tank Cars,even passenger cars.... And talked with a few of the engineers who haul them up and down these rails when they've delivered them...
To know that it is not uncommon for a car to drug through as many as 3 to 4 states with whole sets of axles seized to the point where the wheels are ground flat to the rails level with the axles'...seen such things... also that these ppl are on schedules and will pull excessive numbers of cars at speeds of 80 mph on the open lines to keep on them...
with strings so long how does one who is a mile or more ahead of the last cars know what's happening back there?????....There are many, Many things that need to be put under heavy restrictions on, In the rail industry.....
Jail time or whatever it takes, To not only those keeping their schedules...but to those who set them...would in no way be Harsh enough!
Not were Chemicals of such a Hazardous nature are concerned!!!! I think they should be banned from rail transport in any such high volume.....47,000 gallons of Costic Soda....AKA Lye....in a concentrated form...just ask's for trouble!!!! These car's could have ended up in a reservoir or worse..... !!!
At any speed the cars in question are no more than tin cans with wheels.. they are barely a 1/4 of an inch thick!!!
[This message has been edited by billknepp (edited 09 July 2006).]
Well I for one don't want to see an additional 10,000 eighteen wheelers on the highways hauling caustic chemicals either. An accident with trucks would have killed something more precious than a bunch of fish, people! In my lifetime I have seen more streams ruined by truck accidents than train accidents; two right in my back yard come to mind. One of my favorite streams was wiped out by a detergent spill due to a truck accident many years ago. This same stream has a railroad that travels along the entire length which hasn?t ever been an issue in recent history. (BTW the stream came back and is once again rated Class A).
In both truck and train accidents, many times the blame is due to operator error. But in our litigious society, it soon becomes the company's fault because they didn't do something to prevent somebody from acting like a @!%*# idiot. I have documented many cases of railroads being sued by individuals who were injured or killed on the tracks in places where NO TRESSPASSING signs were clearly visible or fences were in place. In one case the fence was CUT by a person who was hit by a train but it became the railroad's fault!
If we stick it to NS for this accident we better stick it to the trucking industry too! And while we?re at it, let?s crush the #1 water polluter in Pennsylvania; the group who causes more damage, loss of habitat and other problems due to operator error than any other in the state: the farmer.
Regardless who is to blame; the railroads in this country have a WAY better accident record than the trucking industry and the RR's have don't have the luxury of taxpayer funded maintenance on their right of way. I don't know who or what is responsible for this accident but I'm sure the NS will get sued/fined regardless, but I would rather have that stuff in a rail car than have it in a truck any day of the week.
I, too, am grateful no people were killed or horribly burned by the caustic soda.
I have had some time to cool off now and I think we will see Norfolk Southern step up in a very big and positive way here. We share some responsibility here as well. There would be no product without our demand for it. Putting more of this stuff on the highways is the worst thing we can do. Lets help our railroads find a safer way to transport it.
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Eric "nighthawk"
American veteran and proud of it!
[This message has been edited by nighthawk (edited 10 July 2006).]
Sad thing...My grandfather called today, and although he did not cry, or I did not see him cry, he was very choked up...he loved his homewaters.
By the time they are fishable again, he will probly be looking down from above. As he is not in the best of health.
[This message has been edited by MrsKnepp (edited 11 July 2006).]
I hope this is not off the subject but, there is a local company, Wilburs Chocolates, (spelling?) who have not once, but three times have allowed a chemical spill into lititz Run, vertually killing everything in the stream. I refuse to eat their chocolates and would hope everyone else would as well, ensuring their demise and ending any future problems.
Thanks to our local T.U. chapter, the stream has made a comeback.
[This message has been edited by tea stick (edited 10 July 2006).]
I to have cooled a bit.... Yes to see more rigs hauling these additional chemicals would not be an answer I'd like to see either...But double jacketed tank cars might help the RR to more safely move em..and limiting the number of cars in tow as well as some speed restrictions to trains moving hazardous materials...all of these things would help to lessen the occurrence of these incidents....They may have to increase costs for shipping...but I'd bet it would still be cheaper than truck shipping...
i have fished this stream often, just 1 month ago and hoped to fish it this fall, i guess that won't happen. there was a statemnet by the DEP that a survey found quite a few insects were found 10 miles down stream of the spill but virtually no fish were found for 20+ miles. the locals will be hurt very badly. fishing tourism is a big part of the local economy in spring and summer.
The real shame in this whole situation is that there has been very little mentioned in any of the local media. It did get a brief blurb on the tv news and in the local paper, but very little has been mentioned after the fact. Here is the latest from the PA DEP:
[url=http://www.ahs.dep.state.pa.us/newsreleases/default.asp?ID=4045&varQueryType=Detail:a70f3]http://www.ahs.dep.state.pa.us/newsreleases/default.asp?ID=4045&varQueryType=Detail[/url:a70f3]
Thanks all. I am still following this,,,and will continue.
Folks, don't cancel your plans for the area. Jump over to Kettle Creek and fish the wild brook trout enhancement area above the reservoir. You will not be disappointed. There are many other good fisheries in that area though non compare to Driftwood and Sinnemahoning Creek.
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Eric "nighthawk"
American veteran and proud of it!