Czech and Tenkara -- Flyfishing?

I have nothing against Czech and Tenkara fishing methods. They work and will continue to grow in popularity.
I do have a problem calling them fly fishing.
Throughout my life I have fished with a cork for panfish. I really like sitting and waiting for the cork to bob. It's one of the most relaxing blood-pressure-lowering activities around. That's probably why I like watching the popper disappear on a popper-dropper rig.
But...I cast the popper dropper. I use a cane or jig pole for most of the cork fishing -- no casting.
Tenkara doesn't seem to present itself as fly fishing, just a method that catches a lot of fish with specialized equipment.
Czech fishing claims to be fly fishing.
I disagree.

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Originally Posted by CoachBob

...I do have a problem....

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I agree.

John

I guess one could argue that they aren't truly fly casting, but undeniably they are fishing with flies using a form of fly rods...that spells fly fishing to me. Heck, Dame Julianna wouldn't recognize what is today's purist fly fishing. I say do it however it pleases you, but I feel it is a mistake to put a severe limit on the definition of the sport for everyone else based on a personal bias.

Sorry, but Tenkara and Czech styles are just that, a style of fly fishing, but they are fly fishing.

Heck, the original fly fishing method in Merry Old England and Europe was in fact Tenkara fishing, just not called that. They used poles cut from saplings that were tied together with twine or leather straps and had a long horse hair line tied to the end. They would cast it out into the river, fish on the swing and if the caught something they would simply walk backwards up the bank and drag the fish onto the shore. That is the original fly fishing. Even the early records that mention fishing with a fly in the cradle of civilization was the same thing, just with a shorter sapling.

When I am fishing pocket water with my bamboo rod, casting short casts up the stream, it isn't much different than Tenkara or Czech since I never use my reel except to hold my line. Mostly it is hook a fish, bring up my rod to get the fish close to me and release the fish.

Fly fishing is a very diversified sport, let people pick what style they want to fish and let them be happy. I know I am.

Larry ---sagefisher---

The thing I want to know, is why are fly fisherman so quick to define their type of fishing. Do bait fisherman sit around and argue about what and what is not bait fishing? Do guys fishing Rapalas explain to spoon fisherman that they are not truly pike fishing? No, probably not. How many of us fish wet flies on the swing and nothing else? I would say not enough, but would anyone like to find its origins? Don't let anyone put blinders on you because the world not flat any more, there are no classes, and the pursuit of fly fishing is limitless.

AND. there is someone who actually cares and loses sleep over this ???

Mark

Agree with Marco. What difference does it make as long as the angler is fishing in accordance with the law.

Tim

If you read "The Compleat Angler" by Isaak Walton, I think you will find that angling was considered playing the current and the (angle) of your presentation as the most important part of fishing. Whether with an artificial fly or the real bug (grasshopper or grub) the presentation of the attractant is the most important part of angling. We call our sport Fly Angling for a reason. We do it with a rod, an attractant, and stealth, but most importantly we concentrate on the presentation and "Angle" of the drift to trick our quarry into an attack. Whether dapping, bobber (strike indicator) fishing, nymph, streamer or dry, our goal is to trick the fish into a strike. Whether we do it with a cane pole and braided horse hair line or graphite, fiberglass and bamboo, it's all angling. To me, Tenkara, Czech Nymphing, or Up Stream and Dry, it's all about the sport of trickery. The conquest of the quarry is all it takes to be a successful "angler" if done with stealth, presentation and the angle of presentation.

Does fly fishing even need a definition?

For those that want to 'define' it I can only ask, why?

I'm not being tongue in cheek here. I seriously want to know why anyone would think fly fishing needs to be defined.

Seems pointless to me, but I'm willing to learn from my betters.

Buddy

While I guess I can see somewhat of an argument with Tenkara (although I don't agree), I see no arguement whatsoever for saying that Czech nymphing is not flyfishing. It's a flyrod, and a fly, and it has a standard fly reel...and CAN be cast like any other rod. The only difference is, you don't always "need" to cast due to the rod lengths.

However, here is no difference between Czech nymphing and nymphing a small stream with a normal length rod. As a matter of fact, contrary to popular belief, Czech nymphing is nothing new at all. It's how I was taught to "nymph" as a child 35 years ago. We fished a nymph with a splitshot the same way as we fished a worm and a sinker....constant contact and drag/tap the sinker through the lies.

If I'm nymphing a small stream with a 7ft flyrod setup....there is no need to cast. But it's still flyfishing. Likewise I would argue is Tenkara. How different is tenkara, from "dapping" flies along a brook tout stream? None. Nothing but a leader and tippet though the tip-top....reaching the rod out through the briars to place your fly. I grew up fishing those brook trout streams with no leader at all really. Just 4ft of 4lb mono attached to the fly line...dapping a wet fly.

There is an underlying implication that if some form of angling isn't considered "fly fishing" that it is somehow "substandard" or of less value. I don't believe that to be the case, nor apparently does the OP (based upon their first sentence). So does it really matter if any form of angling is or isn't called "fly fishing"? If suddenly, all the "upstream and dry" purists were no longer considered "fly fishing", would anything of consequence change? It all seems pretty inconsequential to me.

But to play along and "further" the discussion...

For me, what defines "fly fishing" and differentiates it from other forms of angling is the process used to present the hook to a fish. Not whether that hook is a "fly" of feathers, a metal lure, or a worm on a hook.

How do I get there? Let me elaborate.

In most other forms of angling (thank you for using/defining that term Lotech), weight is added to a line with insufficient mass to be effectively cast alone. That weight (a lure, bobber, sinker, etc.) is then cast by the angler, and it in turn carries the "weightless" line with it. (Like in spin-casting) In "fly fishing" the opposite is true. A line already having "sufficient" mass to effectively be cast alone is cast, and that line in turn carries the "weightless" hook with it. Another way to look at it is this: When you cast, what leads the way? If it is the line, then the line is being cast. If it is what ever is attached to the line, then it is the "weight" that is being cast. Line being cast = Fly Fishing. Added weight being cast = some other form of angling.

Based upon my definition of "fly fishing", I'll let you decide if I consider Czech nymphing and/or Tenkara "fly fishing". But I really don't care what you call it. It's all angling, and it's all fun.

---David

Utah Dave....I think the only real purpose for the defining, would be due to the fact that so many waters these days are classified as "Flyfishing only".

I was told years ago that in Michigan on some rivers designated 'Fly fishing only' that many people would use spinning rods, split shot and a fly. It seemed that what was on the end of the line as the 'lure' determined what constituted fly fishing as far as the authorities were concerned. The meaning of words and phrases are subject to how they are used in any given society or group. Go somewhere where Tenkara dominates as an angling style and see what they call it. Maybe they would not call it fly fishing. Do the Czech nymphers call it 'Czech nymphing' or is that just part of what they call fly fishing. It's all relative. I know many who would say that golf is not a sport. I don't agree with their opinion although I do believe golf is for people who don't know how to fish.;)

I think people can define fly fishing by any criteria they choose.

However, I do think that a lot of the people who say tenkara is not fly fishing have a misconception of tenkara.

No one who has fished with a tenkara rod would call it dapping. It is casting. The weight of the line propels the nearly weightless fly, just as in fly casting. Obviously, you cannot haul or double haul, but that's not the point. With a 13' rod, an 18' line and a 4' tippet, you cast your line and can fish 30' away. (I prefer a somewhat shorter line, but the line is still cast.)

There are people who can cast a fly rod well over 200' but most fish are actually caught within about 30' - the effective casting distance of a tenkara rod.

I am not trying to change people's minds, I am only trying to get them to understand that tenkara is not just dapping (not that there's anything wrong with dapping:cool:).

edited to add: Bamboozle posted his comment while I was writing mine, had I seen his I wouldn't have posted what is essentially the same answer he gave.

I think that if one makes a literal reading of the Oregon fishing regs they could decide that fishing tenkara in a fly fishing only waters is not permitted due to the lack of a reel.

Tim

Just to clear things up....my comparison to tenkara and dapping was not to suggest that Tenkara "is" dapping (although it lends itself to it perfectly). It was intended to show that if "dapping" with a flyrod is flyfishing....then how can you suggest that only having a leader with tenkara precludes it from being flyfishing?

If I were king of the world things would be differrent. But I'm not. And they're not.
I started this thread because -- for whatever reason -- some things bother me. Not sure why, but they do.

First, let me make it clear that I have absolutely nothing against tenkara. I've done essentially the same thing with a 16' jig pole and it's cool in its own way, and catches lots of fish -- which adds to the cool.

On the other hand, in my opinion -- and it's only that, an opinion -- fly fishing tournaments should be more restrictive.

Yea, yea, it's their competition and they can make the rules, but....

Several international flyfishing championships have been won without the winner ever having an inch of fly line touch the water -- Czech nymphing.
Yes, it's basically the same as tight lining or high sticking, and I have been seriously outfished by someone highsticking thirty feet from me, but Chech nymphing strikes me the same as using a corn kernel imitation fly in a one fly tournament on waters with freshly stocked trout.
I mean, come on, why not just allow the C4 nymph, or the piscicide special?

Consider golf. Huh? Trust me, there's a correlation here.
The Polara golf ball is a self correcting ball that significantly reduces slices and hooks. It is legal to buy them and play with them but they are not legal for USGA competition. Why? Because a ball that makes it too easy to drive straight isn't copacetic with the spirit of the game. Same thing for square grooved clubs.


So...it strikes me that Czech nymphing runs afoul of the spirit of fly fishing competition.

Threads like this are the reason I use a bobber...a red and white bobber...when I nymph with a fly rod.

Seriously?? We have to have a discussion like this? It's the fly, not the line, which makes for the fly fishing, and it doesn't matter what the fly is... In California, you can fish fly only waters (the few there are) with "conventional" gear as long as you have a fly on the end of it. I used to slam fish with a clear bobber trailing 2 nymphs or a nymph and dry.

As far as the fly line not hitting the water...how else do YOU fish really small streams...you know, the ones you can reach across, choked with brush? Do you back cast and shoot 15 or more feet of line in that situation?

I remember when people used to beef about the use of the chernobyl-type foam flies in the Jackson Hole One Fly. Why were they beefing? The flies were effective, period.

Go fishing, people...let the fish decide if it is a fly or not.

Maybe it's just time to go fishing..... Best Regards....

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Originally Posted by Tig

I was told years ago that in Michigan on some rivers designated 'Fly fishing only' that many people would use spinning rods, split shot and a fly. It seemed that what was on the end of the line as the 'lure' determined what constituted fly fishing as far as the authorities were concerned.<snip>

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Tig, I was told the same thing by a guide at Gates Lodge.

Ed

John S...http://media.bigoo.ws/content/gif/smiles/smiles_405.gif

Legally...you only need to be fishing with a fly to be fly fishing, in most states. How you get that fly to the fish MIGHT be regulated on some waters...but for the most part, you can lob a fly with a spinning rod, mono line and a cork or casting "bubble", or 3 inches of pencil lead if the conditions warrant. It's still fly fishing.

There will always be some that believe that it's only fly fishing if you use a dry fly casting up stream only.

In my book...to each his own as long as it's legal. To argue anything else is just wasted energy and it's getting way long in the tooth. I don't have time, because I'd rather be fishing.

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Originally Posted by Mato Kuwapi

John S...http://media.bigoo.ws/content/gif/smiles/smiles_405.gif

Legally...you only need to be fishing with a fly to be fly fishing, in most states. How you get that fly to the fish MIGHT be regulated on some waters...but for the most part, you can lob a fly with a spinning rod, mono line and a cork or casting "bubble", or 3 inches of pencil lead if the conditions warrant. It's still fly fishing.

There will always be some that believe that it's only fly fishing if you use a dry fly casting up stream only.

In my book...to each his own as long as it's legal. To argue anything else is just wasted energy and it's getting way long in the tooth. I don't have time, because I'd rather be fishing.

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See, I don't see that as "Fly Fishing" I see it fishing a fly, which you are...fishing a fly with a spinning outfit. Fly Fishing is the rod, PVC line, reel, leader tippet, or the Tenkara as it is the PVC line and the fly, same with Czech.
We have several waters that are labeled "Flies or artificial lures" But waters labeled fly fishing only MEANS just that. Not fishing a fly. But in the same breath, IF you were to stick a worm or a hopper on a hook and cast it with a Rod and PVC line, etc. I say you are fly fishing bait :-)

In the words of the immortal Charles Schultz...Good Grief!