Furled Leaders - Shorb Loop

Yesterday, at long last, I had the opportunity to view Kathy Scott's DVD on making furled leaders. It is very well done, and I would certainly recommend it to anyone who interested in furling their own leaders.

There is an alternative to the method of finishing a furled leader with a loop at either or both ends as shown in Kathy's DVD, using a technique which is, I believe, simpler than the one shown by Kathy. It is the one I learned from the fellow who taught me the furling technique that I use ( which is quite different than Kathy's ).

Just a couple comments about the photos and this shorb loop technique. First, the illustration refers to a "lasso". That is made in the butt end by pulling the tip end of the furled leader through the collected loops which make up the butt end and pulling the leader through those loops until a small "lasso" is formed at the butt end of the leader. It is made in the tip end by pulling the butt end through the collected loops which make up the tip end and pulling the leader through those loops until a small "lasso" is formed at the tip end of the leader.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...001_edited.jpg

The next photo explains how to use a piece of mono rather than a splicing needle to make the "lasso" and what the finished shorb loop looks like.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...002_edited.jpg

As a precaution, it is well advised to slip a piece of thread or wire through the collected loops on either end of the leader to keep them all together when removed from their peg or post. If you incorporate a tip ring in tip end of the leader before you start the twisting / furling process, that will keep the collected loops on that end secure. And it certainly makes forming the "lasso" simpler.

John

P.S. I realize this technique may have been posted before and / or may be familiar to most folks who furl their own leaders. For those who are not familiar with it, it might simplify the finishing part of the furled leader process.

The end loops no matter how I try to do them are killing me and my stiff fingers. I WILL NOT GIVE UP

Here we are, om years ago;,, years ago. :)
http://colo2.flyanglersonline.com/pr...kathyscott.php
You guys just gotta read these things!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by scubatim

The end loops no matter how I try to do them are killing me and my stiff fingers. I WILL NOT GIVE UP

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Kathy uses the dowel....I could not get the hang of that either...so I put a dowel in my VISE plate. I put the thumb tack in the top of the dowel. I don't use the paper clip anymore as it was too big for my liking. So, now I stick a piece of wire on the tippet end before I furl. Just fold the wire in half.
Now once it is furled, and I have the tack in the dowel, I thread the folded wire through the loop on the Thumb Tack, pulling all the leader through forming the loop.
I now remove the thumbtack and slide the loop over the down and proceed to form the Shorb loop like Kathy does, but the dowel can't move and is vertical instead of Horizontal.

I guess we all adapt to what works better for us, but KATHY was the reason I even try.

Here's how Warren and I do it. I finally took some step by step photos that I've wanted to do for some time.

Insert the Knit Picker between the twisted legs. I use my index finger for a gage. Slide pasr the latch.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/e...2_edited-1.jpg

Trap all the strands in the knit picker hook and close the latch.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/e...3_edited-1.jpg

Pull back through.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/e...4_edited-1.jpg

Slide back over the latch and trap the loop you have just formed in the hook of the Knit Picker

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/e...5_edited-1.jpg

Pull the loop back through and snug up the loop.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/e...7_edited-1.jpg

I'm headed over to Warren's for some homemade soup. :D When I get back I'll show how I install the tippet ring.

BTW Tim I hope this helps!

I'm lovin' this! All great ideas :-)

There're a couple more floating about on the UK Furled Leader Forum and these guys from Chicago who made an automated set-up, but I think Fly Goddess has the bottom line - whatever works best for everyone.

Nice photos, Jack. Scubatim - one of these times I'm betting you'll take one of these methods and then look back and wonder why it was so hard (it was boggling for me at first, at least). Thanks, JohnScott , for posting the alternative, and JC as always for all the support.

Kat

I don't know Jack maybe I need to come down for some hands on instruction.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kathy Scott

I'm lovin' this! All great ideas :-)

There're a couple more floating about on the UK Furled Leader Forum and these guys from Chicago who made an automated set-up, but I think Fly Goddess has the bottom line - whatever works best for everyone.

Nice photos, Jack. Scubatim - one of these times I'm betting you'll take one of these methods and then look back and wonder why it was so hard (it was boggling for me at first, at least). Thanks, JohnScott , for posting the alternative, and JC as always for all the support.

Kat

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Kathy trust me I will be laughing at all of this in time. Just like when I decided I will never be able to tie a fly. Now all my fish are caught by flies I have tied. LOL

What I lack in talent I make up for with persistence

Jack,

Thanks, Teach, I needed that refresher. It's been a while since I've spun any up. Looking forward to the tippet ring section.

ScubaTim,

Nothing like sitting down with Jack to make a few furled leaders. At the Idaho Fish-In jack showed me how to make one then had me furl a few up. First one was perfect, the next few went in the trask can. I'm actually fair at it now. The dang things last so long that you can forget how to make them before you need another. Good thing we have needy friends.

REE

And now the tippet ring (Man that soup was gooooooood!!)

2mm ring and #14 crochet hook

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/e...8_edited-1.jpg

Slide the ring on the crochet hook

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/e...9_edited-1.jpg

Remove the paper clip and grap the loop in the tippet end with the crochet hook and slide the ring onto the leader. This is one reason I like Uni thread, it holds loop shape even when free of the paper clip.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/e...0_edited-1.jpg

Remove the crochet hook and pass the Knit Picker through the loop. Take it past the latch and pick up the butt end Shorb loop and pull it through the tippet end loop.
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/e...1_edited-1.jpg

Pull the leader through, insert the crochet hook in the ring and snug up.
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/e...2_edited-1.jpg



The finished ends.
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/e...3_edited-1.jpg

If you are using 2.5 mm rings a #11 crochet hook will work.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e1...g?t=1235948171

I use some slightly different tools to Shorb my loops. I inset a thin metal tube (far right, middle row)between the leader legs before I do my final furl. This provides a channel to pass the end of the leader between the twist.

I use a needle to transfer the leader off my s hooks onto a piece of mono, and then thread the mono thru the previously inserted tube to form a loop. I then use a knit picker to pull the resulting loop thru the end of the leader.

Whew, hope that wasn't too confusing, it's easier done than said.

p.s. I also find an empty pen body great for tightening my shorb loops once they are formed.

p.p.s. I really like to use the s hooks rather than bent paper clips.

As everyone said, whatever works.

Jack -

That is a pretty slick way of adding a tip ring after you have furled the leader. You can incorporate the tip ring in the leader by sliding it down one leg to the very end of the "V" before you start twisting. My set up is a bit different than Kathy's, but I think Gemrod figured out how to incorporate the tip ring using my technique and Kathy's basic furling method.

To incorporate the tip ring in the leader, insert a piece of thread or small wire through the collected loops on one end of the "V". Bring the ends of the thread or wire together and slide the tip ring onto the doubled over thread / wire. Lift the collected loops off the post and slide the tip ring from the thread / wire onto the leader. Replace the collected loops on their post. Slide the tip ring to the very end of the "V".

On my setup, I have a hook to which I attach the ring. I then crank out the twists in both legs at the same time with the tip end threads of the leader twisting freely within the tip ring. When I'm done with the furling twists, the tip ring is secure at the end of the leader.

Gemrod, using Kathy's method, as I understood what he told me, simply slid the tip ring to the very end of the leader and after twisting both legs separately and letting them furl ala Kathy's method, the tip ring was properly secured at the end of the leader.

pszy22 -

You technique for creating the "lasso" is very interesting. I'm not sure it is adaptable to my method of furling leaders, but next time I do some I'm going to see if it would make sense to do it that way. I'm not clear entirely clear how the tube stays in place while you are twisting / furling. Or are you inserting it through the end loops after all of that is done ??

John

John, the problem with that is the ring is only on HALF the threads/mono. I realized by adding it to the finish leader it is full strength and it did make a difference. Take the ring, slide it on the small/tippet end then loop the end over it. The ring is now held by all six strands instead of three.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fly Goddess

John, the problem with that is the ring is only on HALF the threads/mono. I realized by adding it to the finish leader it is full strength and it did make a difference. Take the ring, slide it on the small/tippet end then loop the end over it. The ring is now held by all six strands instead of three.

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Joni -

I've mentioned this before - I've had occasion to break off 2X 10# test tippet with the tip rings incorporated in the leaders as described above with no damage to the leader or tip ring. I don't fish heavier tippet than 2X.

My experience with this technique is that if I loose a fish it will because of the tippet breaking off or a knot letting go, not because of the way the tip ring is incorporated in the leader.

For me, the method I learned is easier to do and a bit cleaner than Jack's method, and it is plenty strong for the fishing I do. Now, if I do end up going after some CARP or other HOG type fishies, I'll have another approach which will likely be a stronger connection, as you suggest.

John

Good to hear. I use the Uni 6/0 and the ring was breaking off on 12" fish. Not all the time but after the second fish, it was time to re-evaluate. Like I said...3 or 6.
I agree it is cleaner, however. I just hate loosing fish even if it has only been a couple;-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fly Goddess

Good to hear. I use the Uni 6/0 and the ring was breaking off on 12" fish. Not all the time but after the second fish, it was time to re-evaluate. Like I said...3 or 6.
I agree it is cleaner, however. I just hate loosing fish even if it has only been a couple;-)

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Guess I should have mentioned that I am using Danville 210 which is more like 3/0.

Did I give you one of mine at Jimmy's? (by the way, I will call him tomorrow about the CDL and thanks)
We have got to fish the Boo in APRIL! Some of the diversions!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fly Goddess

Good to hear. I use the Uni 6/0 and the ring was breaking off on 12" fish. Not all the time but after the second fish, it was time to re-evaluate. Like I said...3 or 6.
I agree it is cleaner, however. I just hate loosing fish even if it has only been a couple;-)

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You may have 6 strands going through the ring, but you only have 3 strands on the back side if the knot. If you think about it, both methods rely on 3 strands of thread for its strength...same goes for the shorb loop.

Brad

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaboom1

You may have 6 strands going through the ring, but you only have 3 strands on the back side if the knot. If you think about it, both methods rely on 3 strands of thread for its strength...same goes for the shorb loop.

Brad

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I am not seeing what you are saying.

Here is what I am talking about:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f1.../tipring-1.jpg

Here is what John is talking about:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f1.../tipring-2.jpg

all 6 or half 3.

If you are doing them like Jack does, and from the picturs it look like it, you put the ring on the leader, and then pull the but of the leader through the loop formed on the tip end to lock the ring in place. When you do it that way, you are seperating the 6 strands(3 on each side) and relying on the 3 strands on the back side of the ring to lock the ring in place. You have 6 strands through the ring...but only 3 on the rear of the ring.

I am not saying that is a bad idea, but you are still relying on 3 strands of thread to hold the ring in place. As I said before...same thing for the shorb loop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaboom1

If you are doing them like Jack does, and from the picturs it look like it, you put the ring on the leader, and then pull the but of the leader through the loop formed on the tip end to lock the ring in place. When you do it that way, you are seperating the 6 strands(3 on each side) and relying on the 3 strands on the back side of the ring to lock the ring in place. You have 6 strands through the ring...but only 3 on the rear of the ring.

I am not saying that is a bad idea, but you are still relying on 3 strands of thread to hold the ring in place. As I said before...same thing for the shorb loop.

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Three on each side of the ring...still six, just split.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fly Goddess

Three on each side of the ring...still six, just split.

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Exactly!...split. Somewhere in your system there are only 3 strands holding things together. I have the same situation with the Shorb loops...thats just the way things are.

Brad

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaboom1

Exactly!...split. Somewhere in your system there are only 3 strands holding things together. I have the same situation with the Shorb loops...thats just the way things are.

Brad

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Nope still not seeing it. 3 X 2 = 6 and 6. the other way is flat out 3 at all times. Difference like holding a cup with one hand or with both. With both hands you ARE stronger.

Joni;
Lets call the tippet section of the leader the "Standing Line". When you form the handshake loop to hold the ring in place there are only 3 strands around the Standing Line.

I have added 1 round (down and back) of 0,005 Coats & Clark clear nylon thread to 6/0 Uni thread leaders to beef them up a couple of pounds with out adding too much bulk.

Looks like John's thread (Pun intended) has been HiJacked!!;)

I should have said, I understand the THREE in one spot. I am saying, it all becomes ONE and it is stronger. You would have to pull unevenly if that is possible.
This is just my experience. I have yet to loose a ring with the full amount.

I think of it like the old watersking days. Using two hands was much stronger and less fatigue. I know it isn't quite the same, but the mathmatics in my head says it works:D

A couple observations -

On the shorb loop, and on the tip ring as installed after furling as demonstrated by JACK, the "three strands" are not at the place of maximum stress on the system, they are probably at the point of minimum stress.

The maximum stress will be at the point where the thread in the shorb loop or the metal in the tip ring is connected to the tippet. The point where the "three strands" meet the six threads of furled leader further up the leader, only have to withstand the stress of one half, or less, of the stress at the connection of the loop or ring to the tippet.

Also, the twisted and then furled strands have a combined breaking strength greater than the product of the strength of the number of threads times the breaking strength of each. That is, three strands of Danville 210 would have a combined breaking strength of around 8# ( according breaking strength information posted with the tying threads at Jimmy's ). But the strength of a leader furled with the same material is much greater than 8#.

I think the second point about the increased strength of a furled material is another way of making the point that Joni is talking about. In an earlier thread, I refered to it as the "multiplier effect" of the furling process. As I recall, JACK refered to some tests that indicated the breaking strength of a 10-8-6 done with Uni 6/0 was 12#. That is far greater than the breaking strength of three unfurled strands of Uni 6/0 which is something less than 6#.

John

I use 6/0 uni thread for my furled leaders and often screw up the shorb loop on the tippet end because I cant get the splicing needle through the strands. In that case I just tie a perfection loop and add a dab of super glue to hold it in place.

jw healy,

The tippet end on a furled 6/0 leader is very small and can be a real pain to get the "knit-picker" through to do the shorb loop. When this happens to me, I reach for my fly tying bodkin and push it through the center which then will allow me to get the knit-picker through and then remove the bodkin.

Might try that next time...

I bought some several years ago before I started making my own, in which the maker attached a 12" or more piece on mono or fluorocarbon.
You have that small loop at the end from the weight, take some tippet material, put a small perfection loop in the material and do the loop to loop connection. Put a little weight on the end of the tippet and allow the leader to furl into the tippet.
Then you just tie tippet to the tippet.
Just another thought.

now I like that idea. But what size tippet would you use at the end of the furl? 3x, 4x? Are you concerned with the step down creating a hinge-effect. Now I did it, I said hinge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SonOfMartin

now I like that idea. But what size tippet would you use at the end of the furl? 3x, 4x? Are you concerned with the step down creating a hinge-effect. Now I did it, I said hinge.

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It doesn't hinge. it is a very smooth transition. I am guessing it depends on what you use you leader for. For example, if I made a leader for a 4-6 weight, then I would add 4X to the leader, them maybe just a piece of 5X and fly. Whatever weight tippet you attach to the leaders now.

The only disadvantage would be that once the tippet material was gone the leader is through, but now that I make them I can see how I could attach another piece when needed.

A bump for REE :D

Where are tippet rings found?

I use these, but if you google tippet ring there are a few choices

http://www.jsflyfishing.com/cgi-bin/...LL-295020-0000

John,
Didn't mean to mis-lead you. I am doing the same thing you are with the tippet rings. We just arrived at how to do it on our own. I fould that a paper clip will go through the tippet ring. So....I bent a paper clip to my liking, pushed it through a 4oz egg shaped fishing weight. Bent the piece sticking out the bottom up around the weight and duct taped it on. The part of the paper clip sticking out the top of the weight is open allowing me to just simply feed it onto the tippet ring. With tippet ring in place.....and a weight attached to the tippet ring, and a clamp I bought at a flea market.....dunno what you call the clamp, it has rubber pads on it and will clamp down and lock in place on the vertical shaft my leader is wrapped around. Anyway...geeze a picture is worth a lot more than my words huh?

I am doing what you and Kat are doing....just hanging a weight off the tippet ring with a paper clip.

I'll say this. The reason I never was interested in motorizing my set up is that I use a battery powered dremel "pet trimming" tool. It spins so fast I don't need to motorize or such. I can make a furled leader so fast it make your head spin......grin....

They were on ebay for something like $24 and a special of $5 off shipping or something like that. I CALLED the company instead of ordering off ebay. He quoted original price to me and I pointed out ebay had a special. He said oh...lemme me go look....they do that all the time. He came back and said sure. Something like $5 off...don't quote me....memory gone these days. But total was something like $27.50. Battery operated one at Wal-Mart $35 and not exactly what I wanted any way. The pet grooming Dremel works terrific.

jsut fyi...if I could just tiypue....new word...jesut?...fingers losing it now
JIm

anytime I use a fish hook I stick it in my hand and draw blood........I just prefer a paper clip