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It seems to me I have seen fishermen critized for using too light of a rod for the size fish they are pursuing, but the same people seem to find it acceptable to use whatever weight line they deem necessary to best present and hook the fish they are after. It seems to me that I can land most fish as quickly using my 3 wt. rod and a 4 lb. tippet as I can on my 5 wt. or 6 wt. rod using the same tippet. I would like to see an intelligent discussion along these lines.
Uncle Jesse,
I fish 3 weights up to 9 weights, naturally depending upon the type of fish and size I will be going for. I have a philosophy of 'It is better to use a rod slightly heavier than to use a rod that is slightly lighter' for the intended target. I Catch & Release all fish. Because of that I do not want to place any undue stress upon the fish I catch. I really enjoy the cast and the take and the initial feel of the hook-up. Then all I want to do is get the fish in and released as soon as possible.
I know of people who fish for salmon with 5 weight rods, and I really don't like to see that. They spend an far too much time in fighting the fish, which causes an excessive amount of strain on the fish and could possibly cause the fish to die. That would be a shame.
Another factor is if there are two of you in a boat and a fish is caught on an outfit that is too light, then all that extra time that person is using to get the fish to the boat means that the other person can not fish, so you are taking away fishing time from your partner. That isn't nice at all.
So for trout in the western rivers I use 5 weights and 6 weights. For pocket waters in small streams I use 3 and 4 weights. For panfish I use 3 to 5 weights. For bass and salmon I use 7 to 9 weights. Get the hook-up, get the fish in and release it ASAP.
Larry ---sagefisher---
Maybe I did not state my thoughts well. My thinking is the quickness with which you can land a fish depends as much upon the line strength as the weight of the rod. I would like to hear yeas and nays on that thought.
I think I agree with that, UJ. It seems to me the strength of the tippet dictates how aggressive I am when playing the fish...and of course the size/strength of the fish.
Of course leader and tippet line matter, just as rod weight matters. All else being equal, heavier the rod and/or heavier the tippet/leader, the more pressure you can put on the fish. There are those who believe that the lighter rod is better, but what it comes down to is they prefer the fight, and there really is not point in an "intelligent" discussion because they've already made up their mind. Same is true for the tippet/leader debate, although here they debate is clouded by the desire to actually catch a fish, as opposed to just landing one. One distinction is if you use too light a leader/tippet, the fish can get away, whereas if you use too light a rod, you increase the fatality rate of the catch. Neither are defensible points IMHO, but some like to make the distinction. It really is just a matter of physics, but many would rather reduce it to subjective terms to justify their own preferences. This is one of those really odd sort of debates where reason rarely ever wins...
While I agree with Duckster & UJ that the strength of the tippet is the key factor in fighting the fish. I also believe that regardless of the weight of the tippet if the rod is a light weight job the angler has a tendency to prolong the battle, perhaps with an unconscious feeling that horsing the fish will cause damage to the equipment or breakage of the tippet.
As a general rule, you should use as heavy (or strong) a leader as you can without spooking the fish or impairing the action of the fly. I.e. it would be unwise to use a 1 X leader on a #18 trico. But it would be wise to use that size for browns at night on a #2 muddler. There is a subset of anglers that prefer to use overly light tackle on fish for a plethora of reasons but normally fishermen size their tippets to work well with the fly they are fishing and the water type and whether the fish are leader shy. That being said, the size of the fly dictates the size of the tippet and the size of the flyline and then the size of the rod - in that order. But that is in a perfect world.
Now how big a rod you need to fight a fish with is a much more complex matter. Most people don't know that a normal 5X leader will break a 6 wt. rod if you candycane it. The angle of the rod butt to the fish is a very important factor when playing a fish. If you point the rod straight at the fish you can apply force up to the limit of the line but you can't absorb any shock if the fish does something drastic. It you were to put the butt at 90 degrees to the fish, you can apply far less force on the tippet (short of breaking the rod) but you can absorb a lot of shock from violent movements at the other end of the line. Most anglers playing big fish will use that angle to adjust their rod characteristics without even knowing they are doing it.
Now dry fly fishing, I would agree that there isn't mich difference in the fish landing capability between a 3 and a 6 wt. with normal dry fly tippets. Maybe a little, but not much. Both will allow you to go to the limit of the tippet by just adjusting your rod angle. But you put a 20 pound fresh run salmon or a 70 pound tarpon with a 15 or 20 pount tippet on that 3 weight and you will learn why people use 8 through 12 weight rods for that sort of thing. The heavier rods and heavier tippets allow you to put more force on the fish while still maintaining some bend in the rod for absorbing shock when they decide to do a quick change in the direction thing.
I use a 3 or 4 weight on small creeks because I don't need distance and they are fun to fish with. I'll use a 6 if I am planning on fishing on into the dark and switching over for big brownd. I use a seven on steelhead. I use an 8 on salmon and an 8 or nine on snook or reds. The bigger rod for snook is mainly because you have to throw a 2/0 EP out there nearly 80 feet just to keep from spooking them with the boat. I'll use a 6 on the beach for the same fish where you are fishg to them right in front of you.
My $.02
Bob
It all doesn't matter. It is all about the tippet. You will actually probably bring to net more fish with the lighter rod. Not breaking off the fish with a hook in him. And you CAN land the fish just as fast.
The tippet is going to break no matter which rod you use...if you get to the break point of that material. I do not use an extra light rod to fish for trout. But I can put just as much pressure on a 6x tippet with a 3wt as you can with a 6wt. And THAT pressure will break the tippet at some point.
I do not see how you can put more pressure on the same tippet material and bring to net a fish faster with a bigger rod.....than...
using the same tippet with a smaller rod. When the tippet is 3lb tippet and gets to its break point it will break. And it doesn't matter if it's a broomstick or a willow switch.
The weakest link determines how hard you can pull on the fish. Usually, that is the tippet. If it isn't, then you're not set up correctly.
When the tippet is your weakest link, the rod is a shock absorber, not a hauler. Two five weights, one glass and one super-fast graphite will both be able to land all of the same fish in the same amount of time, if used properly. For that matter, as long as your tippet is the weak link, any two rods will be able to bring fish to hand in the same amount of time, provided you know how to use the shock absorber in your hand.
For the most part, the heavier the rod, the greater the load the rod can handle. Thus you can pull harder with a heavier rod than a lighter one. The difference isn't as great when comparing how you might pull on a 3lb trout with 5x tippet on a 3wt vs 5wt rod. When pulling on a 25lb yellowfin tuna with 20lb tippet and a 10 vs 12wt rod the difference is significant and a competent angler will bring that 25lb fish to the boat faster with the heavier rods. If you are going to release that fish it is probably better to whip it in 10-15 minutes with the 12 wt than 25-30 minutes with the 10wt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemrod
You can always point the rod right at the fish and take the rod out of the equation, but at some point you need to put a bend in the rod. The heavier rod will generally allow you to pull harder. If you can pull hard enough to break the tippet with both rods then a skilled angler should be able to bring a fish to hand as quickly with either rod under most conditions.
As I said before, that rod angle thing is important. The tippet is not necessarily the weak point in the equation. This is especially true if you are using a low modulus rod such as glass or bamboo. If you think the tippet is always the weak point, try picking up a 4 pound weight tied to the tip of your favorite 6 wt. rod. Rod angle is important. And a heavier rod will allow you to put a greater load on the tippet with a bend in the rod than will a lighter one.
You can also cast further with a heavier line and a heavier rod.
Just to throw another stick on the fire, has anyone thought of how rod action rather than weight might affect the equation. A softer action rod should allow you to put more pressure on the fish, even with a lighter tippet, as the extra spring in the rod will help absorb additional shocks (such as a strong fish making a sudden unexpected run). Just a thought.
I'm going to agree with the point that I think Bob is making by saying that, all other things being equal, the lighter rod becomes the liability fairly quickly. I've always remembered a point that was demonstrated to a group of us by a casting instructor when I was first starting out. He tied a thick leather ring onto the end of his leader/tippet and handed me one of those boga grips with a scale in the handle. I was the biggest guy in the class, so I was selected to exaggerate the notion of a heavy fish on the end of the line. I gripped the leather ring with the boga, the instructer backed up a little ways and proceeded to lean into and bend the rod from every angle imaginable, including any number of them that I wouldn't have attempted for fear of snapping the rod. I can't remember the exact numbers anymore, but I can remember how nearly impossible it was to register even 2 pounds of pressure on the scale. While some might make credible arguments about also needing to guard against sudden strain from head shakes, underwater obstructions, etc., the point is, we seldom approach the breaking strength of our tippet from the pressure we exert on the fish.
So, to your question, I would argue that if we're unlikely to strain the limits of either of the hypothetical tippet sizes anyway, the rod quickly becomes the difference maker, in that a lighter rod likely translates into less leverage that can be brought to bear. Even if we throw any fears of breakage out the window, I'm sure we all agree that we can't exert as much leverage to turn the fish and/or bring him to net quickly with a 3 wt. than we can with a 4 or 5 of the same model. I'm not interested in the Bill Dance, horse 'em in method any more than the next guy, but I refuse to be one of those guys that I see majestically playing fish to exhaustion either. All other things being equal, I'll always err on the side of the slightly heavier rod.
Edited for a more succinct way to illustrate the point: Take the experiment above, with the instructor using a 3 wt. rod and 5 wt. rod of the same model and length, both terminating in 5X tippet. I'd bet that neither rod could even come close to the 5 lb. break strength of the tippet, but would also bet that the 5 wt rod would register, relatively speaking, a much greater amount of pull.
Yup. What John said. Nice post.
Bob
Oh I am sure I'll get grief on this one but... For a few select brookie creeks where a 9" fish is a big one and a few creeks that are full of sunfish, I fish a 00 weight. Yup 2 sizes below a 1 weight. Really out of necessity, these waters are very shallow and very clear. A 3 weight sends them for cover, the 00 does not. That said though, I take no longer to play these fish (or the odd smallmouth in both instances) that I would take on a 4, 6 or even 8 weight. I use 4 or 5x tippet as a norm and really can lean into these guys if needed because the rod is so soft. They are all tools and if used in the right situations, you can't go too light or heavy. Need to use the rod that fits.
I hear all these 'theories' about how much pressure you can put on a fish with a 'heavier' rod.
Rod angles. Lifting weights. Stiffer, softer....
I've been the 'instructor' showing that you can't put all that much pressure on a fish with a flexed rod...not a fly rod, bass tackle. Even the heaviest baitcasting rod has trouble registering 5# on a scale...Try to 'lift' a two pound weight off the floor with a flippingstick...I've broken a couple doing it...but bass fishermen regularly break off fish with 10 to 15 pound line...how does that 'happen'???? Angler error, poor fish fighting skills, bad knots....lucky fish? Who knows, but it does happen. With the 'can't pull five pounds' argument, it shouldn't happen. Given that argument, the rod should break....but that seldom occurs. If you can't pull 2 pounds with your fly rod, how do so many fly anglers have fish breaking off on 5X or 6X tippet when that tests more than 2 pounds?
Because the test is flawed...you don't just apply pressure to fish by 'flexing' the rod. The 'flex' is there to protect the tippet. You apply pressure to the fish by pulling on it. Rod flex does a little of it, but most is done by pulling with the LINE, not 'bending' the rod.
Remember your other hand? The one pulling in the fish (or cranking the reel handle if you choose that method)?
This is just simple physics, as long as the following 'givens' are in effect...
First given: That the angler knows how to apply pressure to the fish to the reasonable limits of his tackle.
Second given: That the angler is intelligent enough, or cares enough about his tackle, to only use tippet that he can break with the rod (not rod fully flexed, smart anglers do not do that to a fly rod).
Third given: That the angler is skilled enough to kno how to properly play and land the fish.
With those 'givens' the ONLY thing that governs how much pressure you can put on a fish is the strength of the tippet. The amount of pressure you can put on a fish is what determines how fast you can land it. Rod designations like 'weight' are irrelevant, as is rod action or length.
I can easily break 5X tippet with my 3 wt.. Thus I can land any fish just as fast with this size tippet on a 3 wt. as you can with a 6 wt. rod using the same tippet. You can't 'pull harder' than the breaking strength of the tippet, regardless of the rod weight.
Now, I understand that many anglers don't take the time to learn the limits of their tackle, or how to put the maximum presure on a fish. But that's not the issue here. We all should learn as we progress in this sport. Using heavy tackle in place of skill is not how you do that.
Buddy
Ditto what Buddy said. I use the heaviest tippet that i can get away with, in the given situation. I fish for trout 99% of the time , and by using rod angle and running the fish down if i have to , i try to land and release in about a minute. i release 100% of my fish , it puts less stress on the fish, especially in the summer months
I agree with Buddy & flybugpa. I also tend to use the heaviest tippet I can get away with and then try to use my rod to keep the fish off balance so I can land it as quickly as possible. Most of the time I land the fish within a minute or two where it's a nice bass, trout, bluegill or whatever else I have on the line.
... but the things that seem to be missing in this discussion are what the fish is doing and the fact the angler and the fish are often in a dynamic situation. Seems like almost all the forgoing discussion has been based on only what the angler does and a lot of comments that are based on static situations.
I don't know the science or the answer, but I do know that if you are stripping a streamer tied to a fresh 2X 10# tippet through moving water and a 4-5-6 pound trout hits it at just the right moment, it will break that tippet on the hit. Between the strip and the hit, a dynamic situation, there is more than 10 pounds of force on the tippet and your fly goes for a ride. ( The same thing can happen when you have to put the brakes on a big fish to keep it from running someplace you don't want it to go. You hit the brakes at just the wrong moment and that fish is gone with the fly and some amount of heavy duty tippet. )
Take the same 4-5-6 pound trout sipping a dry fly fished off 5X or maybe even 6X tippet off very soft or still water and then just running around in relatively calm water. In that nearly static situation even a relatively unskilled angler ( that would be me ) will more likely land it than lose it, and fairly quickly if that is his / her intent.
Or .... maybe it is just me ??:oops:
John
Science you say? If you want to get technical, here are the reasons you don’t fight tarpon on 3 wt.’s. And – what John N said is right. The reason you can break tippets with a 3 wt. is obvious after you read below.
http://castflys.net/fightfish.aspx
http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/showthread.php?24246-Breaking-fish&p=258846#post258846
Read on if you have trouble sleeping.
http://www.hatofmichigan.org/uploads/Mechanics_of_Fly_Casting.pdf
http://www.hatofmichigan.org/uploads/Mechanics_of_Fly_Casting_2.pdf
http://www.hatofmichigan.org/uploads/Mechanics_of_Fly_Casting_3.pdf
http://www.hatofmichigan.org/uploads/Mechanics_of_Fly_Casting_4.pdf
http://www.hatofmichigan.org/uploads..._Casting_5.pdf
Godspeed,
Bob
Bob,
I Read all of it...They agree with me, as far as I can see.
My premise still stands with the three 'givens' I listed.
With equal tippet strengths that you can break with the rod, it's ONLY the tippet strength that determines how much pressure you can put on a fish and thus how quickly you can land it.
Again, if your tippet breaks at 4 pounds, it's not possible to put more than four pounds of pressure on the fish, regardless of the rod used.
You don't fight tarpon with a 3 wt. because you don't normally fish tarpon with 6 pound tippet.
Buddy
Buddy,
You did notice that the maximum load you can put on the tippet is with the rod pointed directly at the fish. I'll bet that is not how you play a fish. Once you put bend in the rod to protect your tippet from shock loading, the heavier rod will have an advantage in applied load. This is the same reason you need a heavier rod to cast a heavier line as you can see in the Mechanics articles. The heavier rod puts more energy into the line because you can exert a greater force on it.
Buddy, I will bet you are a very skilled fisherman. You probably instintively adjust your rod angle when playing a fish to get the best tradeoff between shock protection and load on the fish. This is probably why you don't need a heavier rod to play a good sized fish. But many of us do not have that skill. Using a heavier rod would allow someone to be less skilled in how they protect their equipment from damage. This is because he can apply more force on a rod that is deflected than with lighter tackle and we don't need the quiclness to drop the rod to protect it against health tugs. And remember, you can break a 6 wt. with a 5X tippet if you get the angle too steep.
We routinely fish leader shy 10 to 14 pound steel head with 4 and 6 pound leaders. I used to fish them with a 9 foot 6 wt. I now fish them with a 9 1/2 foot 7 wt. This is because you can keep pressure on the fish while he executes one of those aerials that steel head are famous for. Never seen anyone good enough to try this with a 3 weight. It probably can be done but not by me or anyone else I fish with.
Anyway, by the time you digest all the stuff in those articles, you will see that a flexed 6 wt. can put more force on the fish than a 3 wt. with the same flex in it. It's the same reason you can cast a heavier line and cast further with a 6 than a 3. You can get good load vs flex data from Bill Hanneman's data base or the Sexy Loops data base. The key term is ERN is this data subset.
Again, I have no doubt that you can fair perfectly well with your 3 weight and have no need to use bigger equipment. Many of the rest of use may do better with heavier equipment.
Godspeed,
Bob
A couple of thoughts, all offered in the respectful sense solicited by the original poster and not in an argumentative one:
I understand the comments about understanding the limits of one's tackle, proper ways to play fish, etc. I'll never consider myself a master of this sport, but I think I do a pretty fair job on both of those counts. I also did not intend for my statements about breaking strengths of tippet to be taken as any sort of absolutes. What I said was, with emphasis added: "we seldom approach the breaking strength of our tippet from the pressure we exert on the fish". There are countless ways that tippet can break from other causes - bad knots, knicks or abrasions, underwater obstructions, sudden shock, etc., etc. All I'm saying is, if it comes down strictly to the pressure we can apply with a rod, I don't think it's going to happen. So if we set aside failure from indirect causes like those mentioned above and assume we have an otherwise reliable connection to our fishy friend, do you really think the weight of the rod makes no difference in the amount of pressure or leverage that can be applied to the fish? If one could accept an extreme example and agree to the notion that an 8 wt. would allow you to apply more force than a 2 wt. (and I don't care what fish fighting technique or tippet strength we use, you won't convince me that that's NOT the case), then any comparison in between those two (4 wt. vs. 6, for example) becomes just a matter of degrees, doesn't it?
My point simply is, if an undamaged tippet holds up its end of the bargain, as it usually does, then it comes down to what you can do with the rod. With all other things being equal, i.e. the same tippet, the same angler and the same good or bad fish fighting techniques employed, I personally believe the strength of the rod becomes the most conspicuous point of differentiation.
Provided you know how to handle your gear the answer is yes. Oh someone mentioned Bill Dance. Well old Bill seems to know what he is doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Jesse
Sacrilege! A non fly fisherman that actually knows what he is doing! The faster you can retrieve and release that fish the better it's chances of survival so just like good old Bill Dance I rip them in as fast as I can. I have to say that about half way through all of this thread my eyes glazed over, my mouth hung open and I was wondering why we have to analyze things to the point that it sucks all the fun out of the actual event of fly fishing. For crying out loud the man didn't ask for the mysteries of the universe to be solved. K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple because Stupid I am.http://bestsmileys.com/frustrated/7.gif
Bob mentioned rod angle to the fly line but what is critical in wearing the fish out is the line angle to the water. It is the angle of pull on the fish that matters as much, if not more, than the angle of pull on the rod.
Whenever the angle of force on the fish is directed upward, some of the pull of the line goes to LIFTING the fish rather than pulling the fish toward the rod tip. Lets say that the angle of the line to the water is 90 degrees (i.e., right above the fish), then 100% of the pull goes to lifting the dead weight of the fish and NONE of the pull goes to pulling the fish toward you. At at 45 degree angle, 50% of the force goes to lifting the fish and 50% goes to pulling the fish toward you. If you put the rod tip under water at the level of the fish and pull, 100% of the force pulls the fish toward you.
Whenever you have any of the force directed up, the fish can use the force of the flowing river against you. It tips its pectoral fins down and the water against the fins makes the fish dive and now you are fighting not only the dead weight of the fish, but the water pressure forcing the fish down against the upward pull of the line.
I see anglers all the time with rod tips held high. The only reason to hold a high rod tip is to avoid snags in the water or to decrease the drag of the fly line in the water because the fish is so far away.
In normal circumstances, fight larger fish with the rod to your side and not up. You then maximize the force of the pull toward you and all of the work of fighting the pull is done by the fish and not the tilt of its pectoral fins or gravity. To fight large tarpon, you will see experienced saltwater anglers actually put the rod tip under the water to maximize the pull of the line toward the boat.
By putting the rod to your side, you can also confuse the fish. With the rod to your right side, the fish will pull to the left against the rod pull. Then you can immediately switch the rod to the left side, and now the fish is actually swimming toward rather than away from the angle of pull. You will gain line before the fish can to reverse direction to pull to the right. Then you reverse to the right again, and the fish now has to go left to fight the rod. You can actually "walk" fish to you with this right, left, right, left maneuver. Try it on large fish and see if it doesn't work. In fact, you can bring the fish so quickly to you that they will be too fresh to net.
Remember to keep the rod low as possible and to the side for big fish UNLESS there are snags or other reasons to clear the line off of the water.
Regarding tippets and rod weight ratings, the key is that lighter rod ratings almost always mean softer rod tips for the same class of rod action. So lighter rods are are generally able to protect light tippets more effectively, but they have weaker butts to pressure fish with stronger tippets. I find longer rods better to fight fish because a longer rod allows you to change the angle of pull through a larger arc when you do the walk the fish maneuver.
Longer rods for a given action and rod weight will also have a stronger butt sections. As rods get longer the butt section gets thicker and stronger. So I like to use the longest possible rod for a given rod weight. As as example, I took two 10 ft (5 wt and 7 wt) GLoomis GLX Classics to Alaska's famous Copper River which has huge rainbows. I fished the 5 weight and never went to the 7 weight even on huge fish. I asked Gary Borger why my 5 weight handled the large bows.
The reason he gave was that my 5 weight was 10 feet long and not the usual 9 footer. That extra foot of rod length meant that my butt section was as strong as a 9 foot 7 weight. Since I fought the large fish with the butt and not the tip, I was able to pressure the fish just like a 9 feet 7 weight GLX. That butt section was so strong that I popped a 2X tippet tied to a streamer on the strike.
The disadvantage of a longer rod is when you are landiing the fish, especially large fish. If you are in a float tube or other device without a long enough net to reach the fish, longer rods make it difficylt and you can break the rod tip as it over bed=nds to bring the fish close enough to you.
The amount of pressure you can put on a tippet is a combination of rod weight rating, rod action rating, and the rod length. It is not as simple as a "X" weight rod can always generate more pressure than a "Y" weight rod.
Bob mentioned rod angle to the fly line but what is critical in wearing the fish out is the line angle to the water. It is the angle of pull on the fish that matters as much, if not more, than the angle of pull on the rod.
Whenever the angle of force on the fish is directed upward, some of the pull of the line goes to LIFTING the fish rather than pulling the fish toward the rod tip. Lets say that the angle of the line to the water is 90 degrees (i.e., right above the fish), then 100% of the pull goes to lifting the dead weight of the fish and NONE of the pull goes to pulling the fish toward you. At at 45 degree angle, 50% of the force goes to lifting the fish and 50% goes to pulling the fish toward you. If you put the rod tip under water at the level of the fish and pull, 100% of the force pulls the fish toward you.
Whenever you have any of the force directed up, the fish can use the force of the flowing river against you. It tips its pectoral fins down and the water against the fins makes the fish dive and now you are fighting not only the dead weight of the fish, but the water pressure forcing the fish down against the upward pull of the line.
I see anglers all the time with rod tips held high. The only reason to hold a high rod tip is to avoid snags in the water or to decrease the drag of the fly line in the water because the fish is so far away.
In normal circumstances, fight larger fish with the rod to your side and not up. You then maximize the force of the pull toward you and all of the work of fighting the pull is done by the fish and not the tilt of its pectoral fins or gravity. To fight large tarpon, you will see experienced saltwater anglers actually put the rod tip under the water to maximize the pull of the line toward the boat.
By putting the rod to your side, you can also confuse the fish. With the rod to your right side, the fish will pull to the left against the rod pull. Then you can immediately switch the rod to the left side, and now the fish is actually swimming toward rather than away from the angle of pull. You will gain line before the fish can to reverse direction to pull to the right. Then you reverse to the right again, and the fish now has to go left to fight the rod. You can actually "walk" fish to you with this right, left, right, left maneuver. Try it on large fish and see if it doesn't work. In fact, you can bring the fish so quickly to you that they will be too fresh to net.
Remember to keep the rod low as possible and to the side for big fish UNLESS there are snags or other reasons to clear the line off of the water.
Regarding tippets and rod weight ratings, the key is that lighter rod ratings almost always mean softer rod tips for the same class of rod action. So lighter rods are are generally able to protect light tippets more effectively, but they have weaker butts to pressure fish with stronger tippets. I find longer rods better to fight fish because a longer rod allows you to change the angle of pull through a larger arc when you do the walk the fish maneuver.
Longer rods for a given action and rod weight will also have a stronger butt sections. As rods get longer the butt section gets thicker and stronger. So I like to use the longest possible rod for a given rod weight. As as example, I took two 10 ft (5 wt and 7 wt) GLoomis GLX Classics to Alaska's famous Copper River which has huge rainbows. I fished the 5 weight and never went to the 7 weight even on huge fish. I asked Gary Borger why my 5 weight handled the large bows.
The reason he gave was that my 5 weight was 10 feet long and not the usual 9 footer. That extra foot of rod length meant that my butt section was as strong as a 9 foot 7 weight. Since I fought the large fish with the butt and not the tip, I was able to pressure the fish just like a 9 feet 7 weight GLX. That butt section was so strong that I popped a 2X tippet tied to a streamer on the strike.
The disadvantage of a longer rod is when you are landing the fish, especially large fish. If you are in a float tube or other device without a long enough net to reach the fish, longer rods make it difficult. You can break the rod tip as it over bends to bring the fish close enough to you to land.
The amount of pressure you can put on a tippet is a combination of rod weight rating, rod action rating, and the rod length. It is not as simple as a "X" weight rod can always generate more pressure than a "Y" weight rod.
Again,
Everyone seems to be ignoring one half of this.
It's not just the rod pulling on the fish.
You also pull with the line, either by stripping or reeling.
And, still, if you can break the tippet with rod, then it's the tippet strength and only the tippet strength that determines how hard you can pull on the fish.
Now, if you are fishing a 6 wt. rod and 10 pound tippet, you can pull harder with that than you can with a 3 wt. rod and 5 pound tippet. Twice as hard, in fact.
But if both rods are equiped with 5 pound tippet, you can't pull harder on the fish with either rod than 5 pounds.
If you do that, the tippet breaks.
Skill helps in how you apply that force, and skill is the deciding factor in how quickly a fly fisherman can land a fish regardless of rod or line weights. However, regardless of how good you are or how unskilled, you still have only the tippet strength to apply to the fish. Because if you apply more force than the tippet will take, it breaks.
This doesn't need to be that hard.
Buddy
totally agree with Buddy.
Go hang weights on a 5lb tippet hanging from a curtain rod.....or some rod. Hang ten of them. Hang barbell weights on one till it breaks. Then do it with quarts of water...on the next one, then bags of sand on the next one,.... rocks, turquoise, diamonds, ........
It does not matter what is applying the pressure. When the tippet gets to its break point it is going to break. It is not dynamically designed to work better with turquoise than copper. It is not designed to work better with 6wt rods than 2 wt rods......
When it gets to the break point it is going to break. Period.
A chain that is three different sizes tied together pulling a dead truck along.....the weakest section of the chain is the weakest chain in that length of total chain.
THE WEAKEST LINK IN A FLY LINE FISHING RIG IS THE "TIPPET"....when you are rigged for trout. Well, that is if your tippet is normal. I don't think I would fish 30lb backing as a tippet with 10 pound fly line. I think even I know which part of THAT rig is going to go first. But that takes the kind of a guy that wires his air conditioner which is mounted on the roof of his house.....and has 30amp fuses in the unit....up there on the roof.....and wires it to 10amp ckt breakers in his utility panel. Then keeps wondering why his ckt breaker keeps tripping and his air conditioner won't stay on.
Not germaine to the issue of which rods to fish with? Yes, it is. It is about what will take the tippet to it's breaking point. And it does NOT matter what material is being used to stretch it to that breaking point, because it is indeed going to break.
Well, I guess that's what makes horse races. Everybody has a different opinion. I am in Buddy's corner.....not that anyone cares. But I agree with Buddy Sanders on this subject. And I sure have found this whole thread interesting reading. Very fascinating opinions and comments. None of them all that far off base. All have truth in them....I think.
Anywhoooo.....I think I understand enough to know how I am going to fly fish. BTW I fish my favorite small stream with an 11' 6wt rod.
Good work Buddy, you hit the nail on the head. Folks it is the tippet strength. Forget about all the myths of rod angle, fish fighting techniques it comes down to tippet strength. Whether you are fishing with a one weight, 10 weight or otherwise the tippet will break at its breaking point. Having said that it it not likely that you can depend on the rated tippet strength as your benchmark. It actuality it comes down to the knot strengths, the knot you have tied in that tippet regardless of rod weight. I very seldom contribute but this thread was a fun read.
Soooo. Why are we bringing a rod? If the rod doesn't matter, why bring one? Oh, I forgot. You still have to cast.Quote:
Originally Posted by RodWest
There is no doubt that the weak point in the line is the tippet - or tippet knots if we get picky. The whole point of using a rod with more backbone is you can put more force on the line with some bend in the rod to protect from violent trickseys by el fisho. The force you put on the line will usually be substantially less than the tippet strength if you have some bend to the rod. Read that stuff I posted. The facts are in there if you want to find them. Or not. The tippet argument seems logical to most of you. So go with it if you like. I am sure you are all fine fishermen and have no trouble landing fish. Just what is actually going on doesn't effect the result anyway.
Godspeed and good fishing,
And Merry Christmas to all.
Bob