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Please don't anyone take this the wrong way, or run with it the wrong way. Out of curiosity, what is this "other" site that was mentioned in another post VSF or VFS or something like that. Is there a history present that some of us newbies should know of?
Jeff
[url=http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zeromain?id=8:f7f31]http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zeromain?id=8[/url:f7f31]
It's another Fly Fishing forum...there are members here from both boards (I am one). This board and that one are extremely different with different rules...and that has brought about some "conflicts". I won't go into details, I'm sure you will figure it out if you haven't already.
Both are great boards with knowledgeable people, but the Off Topic board over there is where people can joke around and really have some fun, especially this time of year when people have cabin fever. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif
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"If firearms cause crimes and kill people, all of the ones I have must be defective."
[This message has been edited by Spud (edited 25 January 2005).]
As Spud has said! It can be a real brouhaha at times.
If you go over there, you'll find a number of boards on different topics. The "Main" board is their equivalent of the FAOL board here. The "Off Topic" board is totally unmoderated and is kind of a wild west bar room. So don't go there unless you can handle that...but do if you can.
Fool,
There is kind of a history that is interesting with VFS (virtual fly shop) and although I can't do it justice I'll try some of the basics.
It was started in the early or mid 90's by a couple Canadians Greg McDermott and Ross Purnell and I think there might have been another but I'm not sure. They developed their own BB software and promoted a fairly interactive website for the fly fishing community. It got big and noticed. It also developed a camaraderie that was unique to the earlier years of such boards. One of the entities that noticed the site was Fly Fisherman Magazine (prinemedia) and they bought them out and moved the operation to Fort Collins CO; believing that they were going to be able to tap into the income generating (subscriptions) of this internet thing. Well that never materialized for them no matter the level of content they pushed. I think mostly because they didn't understand the content that we all found overwhelmingly valuable was the information and entertainment we shared amongst ourselves. Anyway they shifted the whole web presence around and re-arranged both the software and the personal and a couple incarnations later VFS (which exists only in the minds of those of us older regulars) ended up being farmed out to the Florida Sportsman Site.
VFS doesn't exist but we use the name to remind ourselves of the camaraderie and innocence of the early years of such forums.
I'm sure I got some details wrong and certainly left out many more, as I wasn't involved until '96 or so. But I will always remember the VFS that got together and organized two fundraisers for Gary LaFontaine during his last two years of life that brought together people from around the world in a common effort to help one of our own, within a format that hadn't really been tried before.
I know that there is a history of FAOL as well that is written somewhere and I'm sure someone will link you to it. It too is quite a legacy.
Have fun
Bubba
I think the most interesting thing about the VFS is they were really the 1st really large fly fishing Internet site - and successful at building a community. They were purchased by the Fly Fisherman Magazine which I believe at that time was not yet owned by anyone else...
they did fly swaps, had a great data base on flies, neat stuff. However, once they were owned by someone else, the 'bean counters' got into the picture as so often happens, and things which weren't 'making money' were dropped. As I understand it, the BB software became outdated and could not be retrofitted so the BB was moved to the current location.
I'm sure if I have it wrong someone will correct me. The original idea was really
unique! At one point the VFS 'board' was going to be by subscription, which is why FAOL is free. I believe they are two years older than FAOL.
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LadyFisher, Publisher of
FAOL
The thing that amazes me is that the people that run that board let people cuss and post pictures that are not that great for children to see. I do not believe that they care one bit about the children that may come on and view the things that get posted on that sight. I know some of the people that post on it sure don't.
I am on another board that has an area for people to vent on but you have to prove you are 18 and you get a special number that you have to log in to get there. That is as it sould be.
But not on VFS. Dang shame if you ask me. The fellow that seems to run it must not give a hoot either. The funny thing is they give posters a rating? And they ones that are the worst seem to have the highest rating? Ron
I see people complain regularly about what is posted on the net that children may see. When did parents abdicate their responsibility to know what their children are watching, reading, and hearing? I clearly remember my parents saying "you can't watch that, it's not appropriate..." and things to the like.
It seems like most people nowadays want other people to "self moderate" so that their kids aren't corrupted. My thought has always been(I'm a parent myself), you wanted the kids, why don't you take the responsibility for raising them as you see proper? If the internet is a bad place for them, don't let them use it without supervision.
Frankly, I like having a place to say what's on our mind without having to be "politically correct" or worrying about who we may offend. Perhaps more places like that would allow people to get some things of their chests and be more civil to people in real life.
But then again, it's nice to have FAOL and be able to get good info without all that other stuff...
Charlie
[This message has been edited by chascomly (edited 30 January 2005).]
chascomly, I agree with you in concept, I'm just disappointed it is associated with fly fishing. Or any outdoor sport for that matter. Even for adults. I guess the gentleman sportsman is dead.
Jim
Aww, c'mon....don't even we "gentleman" need to cut loose from time to time?
Wouldn't the "gentleman soldiers" of Roman times celebrate a successful battle with a wild bachhanalian feast followed by an orgy? Hmmm, now there's an idea for the next fishing trip...
In defense of the VFS board, the Off Topic is the only place where any sort of controversial stuff is allowed. Any of that stuff is not allowed on the regional boards. I'm sure if you met those guys on the river, they would be as gentlemanly as you would like them. The OT is a place to vent and joke around, as people will do from time to time. Why not? Any kid can get online and view that, but they can also find much worse stuff just by searching the net. Heck, kids get more profanity at school than they would on that board.
It gets pretty rough from time to time over there, but it always gets settled. They don't need moderation.
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"If firearms cause crimes and kill people, all of the ones I have must be defective."
Somehow the general lack of civility, courtesy and manners in our society is getting worse all the time. Most of television is so bad we just don't watch it. There is enough violence on the news, I don't go out seeking other sources to get it. The acceptance that it all is just fine, normal and dandy is in my opinion wrong and leads to a world with no standards, no one responsible for their actions.
For those of you who seem to enjoy the 'off topic' board and find it entertaining it certainly is your choice. Just don't bring it here.
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LadyFisher, Publisher of
FAOL
chascomly- The problem being that the children that go on there to read about fly fishing can get right into that area. And why shouldn't people over there have to be able to long into that area? TV can be handled very easy but the net has just to much for most people to handle for there children. When a site is on Fly Fishing that is what most parents expect to be on it. You want to vent be my guest but do it were kids can't get right at it.
You see I am not giving up on kids being brought up right. Mine are all raised and gone but I do like to see that other kids get a hand when they need it. I just don't like seeing people giving them a hand in the wrong direction. Which in my opinion VFS is doing when they do not make it so that children can not get on that part of there board. Ron
Hey Spud,
"but they can also find much worse stuff just by searching the net. Heck, kids get more profanity at school than they would on that board."
Are you saying two wrongs make a right?
I agree with LF. It bears repeating.
"The acceptance that it all is just fine, normal and dandy is in my opinion wrong and leads to a world with no standards, no one responsible for their actions. "
ducksterman: "Are you saying two wrongs make a right?"
No, never said that. 3 do, but that's a different story. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif
First of all, profanity really isn't allowed on the boards...and there really isn't much on the OT unless somebody gets pretty riled up...and even then it has to be abbreviated or something. What I was trying to say...is that kids learn profanity at school before anywhere else these days, they won't learn it on a message board...they already know it.
How many little kids that don't know profanity, or haven't seen much worse stuff on the web would be viewing an online chat board anyway? Not that I think OT has anything bad at all, sometimes inappropriate, but not bad or "wrong". So what if it's not PC.
Why don't you come on over? You will find that it's often quite enjoyable. It's where real people can talk about real things besides fly fishing. The other regional boards are for discussing fly fishing...as well as this site. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif
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"If firearms cause crimes and kill people, all of the ones I have must be defective."
I see what you are saying Ron. And I agree with LF in that there is definitely a lack of civility and manners in society. I can't tell you how many times in the past week alone that I have gone out of my way to hold a door for some one and they haven't said thank you.
But are TV and message boards to blame? Are TV/message boards/the media really where people are learning how to interact with one another? Seems to me this is something that should be learned within the family unit first and foremost. This begs that old art class question, "does art imitate society or does society imitate art?" I think what we have is a sampling of society. Perhaps a "condensed" version, because you are looking at one area out of 20(?) on VFS that allows this type of posting.
There is plenty of "trash" out there as LF says. But, like the message or not, the freedom to express ourselves in the manner we see fit is one of our basic freedoms in our society, much like the right to bear arms(or fishing rods http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif, which I don't believe is guaranteed in our constitution). Another right we have is the freedom to choose not to look at that stuff. Like LF says...we don't have to go looking for more examples of uncivility.
From a purely practical side(I run a list-serv with over 4000 members), having an area for members to post OT stuff allows you to keep your other board(s) ON topic much more easily.
Charlie
[This message has been edited by chascomly (edited 31 January 2005).]
chascomly- I am not saying that you can't or should not have some place to vent on that site or any site. But I do believe that you should have to prove that you are of age to get on that part of the site. That in no way stops people from saying what they wish but it sure stops children from reading it.
You see I do not believe that 10 percent of the people because they want to read things without being bothered by having to log into and area is a good reason for children being able to read what they should not. It is a lame excuse for being to dang lazy in my book.
The problem in this country is that there are no familys anymore. There are two people working to pay the bills so the kids do as they please for the most part. Hard for the parents to parent. So it is easy for kids to get into trouble on the net. So I think that site's that "CARE" sould take it upon themselves to see that things are done right. Just like FAOL does. Not to hard to do. In fact I do not think there is a real reason that any site that cares about the kids can't do it. Ron
Excuse me! It's responding to these blanket asinine descriptions of society that gets me in trouble around here so I'll leave it at this.Quote:
The problem in this country is that there are no familys anymore. There are two people working to pay the bills so the kids do as they please for the most part.
But I take my family life very seriously and don't need you insulting it.
Have fun
Paul
"The problem in this country is that there are no familys anymore. There are two people working to pay the bills so the kids do as they please for the most part."
That's funny...I grew up with a family. Yes, they work to pay the bills...but I have to work so that I can do as I please!
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"If firearms cause crimes and kill people, all of the ones I have must be defective."
[This message has been edited by Spud (edited 31 January 2005).]
Paul, I honestly don't think Ron, who is twice your age, was insulting you or your family at all. He is a very considerate thoughtful family man...but as a lifelong Montanan he is also aware of the cost to family life today's lifestyle has. I can't believe as observant as you are you aren't aware of it either - the fact that you have been able to keep it from happening in your family doesn't mean it isn't out there. Both mom and dad working does mean the kids are growing up with more tv & mtv influence and less mom and dad - can you argue with that?
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LadyFisher, Publisher of
FAOL
LF,
I'm raising a family with two income parents so yes he did insult me. Ron's statement was absolute in its condemnation current families, maybe he is considerate (is he really 90?) but he wasn't when he made such a blanket condemnation of families. It was not a considered statement. I?m not ?calling him out? for a battle I?m just pointing out that such comments are insulting in their generalities; a considerate person would certainly want that brought to their attention I would think.
Yes I can, I can argue it with my own life and family commitment. Are you going to argue that fathers of yesterday CATAGORICLY were more involved with their children then today? Especially with daughters? Spending more time around your children doesn't make you automatically more influential in their lives, it's the relationship you develop with them not the time on your "parenting punch card".Quote:
Both mom and dad working does mean the kids are growing up with more tv & mtv influence and less mom and dad - can you argue with that?
Have fun
Paul
I would like to think the dads who are fly fishers ARE more involved with their families. I pray that is true. I also know from talking to friends who are teachers they have a large number of parents who never attend a parent/teachers conference at any time. They try and make arrangements to fit the parents schedules, no help. Absolutely no involvment. These are NOT poor families from bad neighborhoods. There isn't a 'blanket' statement to fit all Paul - except to say in the 'old days' it just didn't happen. Times have changes, schools have changes, society has changed...and for the better? Not in my opinion.
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LadyFisher, Publisher of
FAOL
LF,
I understand what you are saying and can't deny such problems exist. But I answered your questions directly and addressed the subjects you raised yet you deflect my questions and issues without addressing them. Why is that?
Let's discuss whether fathers of the mid 20th century were more devoted to parenting than fathers of the current generation (and totally highjack thee thread http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif ) Specifically fathers off daughters. Would you say that it would be common for girls of the 40's and 50's to say that their fathers were as interested and involved in their upbringing and daily issues as current fathers of daughters? Did fathers of this previous generation share time and activities with their daughters to the same degree you find today? Did this earlier society even facilitate the possibility of this sort of interaction between father and daughter that we have today?
We all have fond memories of years and eras gone by and we all remember far more of the good events in our lives then the ugly and painful ones that's perfectly natural. But nobody is ever living in the "good old days"; like fishing it's always "ya should have been here yesterday".
While I remember plenty of wonderful times and social aspects of my youth (and even young adulthood) in considered reflection I can remember plenty of the things that were unfortunate and even ugly. Things I'm glad have fallen or been pushed to the wayside. So yes times, schools and society have changed over the years. Some for the worse and some for the better and I will continue to address these changes on an individual basis. To give a blanket condemnation of our society is an insult to both those who have gone before and gave their blood, sweat and lives to make positive changes and to those who come after me and have to try and deal with and fix all of my mistakes and bad choices.
Have fun
Paul
I just wrote a whole big thing to answer this but for some reason it did not go through?
My statement should have read "A lot of" or most family's" not all. For that I am sorry.
P.Dieter- I do not think this world is in anyway as good as it use to be. Now that is my right you have yours.
You stated
"To give a blanket condemnation of our society is an insult to both those who have gone before and gave their blood, sweat and lives to make positive changes and to those who come after me and have to try and deal with and fix all of my mistakes and bad choices."
I don't think so. I think it is saying that we "TODAY" are not doing a good job at raising our kids. And for the most part there is one heck of a lot that could be done better. You see life was a lot simpler back then and kid were to. Nope I will stand buy what I have said. I do not think that kids are better off today. Parents today give there kids everything they want to show there love. Maybe just hugging them instead of giveing them a cell phone would do a better job.
In your statement it sounds to me like you are saving the world all on your own. With the sentence "sweat and lives to make positive changes and to those who come after me"
There are a lot of people out there besides just "ME"
If you are doing a good job with your kids pat yourself on the back. But there are one heck of alot that are not doing so well. That is a fact that no one can dispute. Those are the ones that I am talking about.
We have a difference of opinion so be it. Nothing wrong with that. I wish I had not lost the post I made as it was better. Ron
Ron,
Are you really 90??? {G}
Ron,Quote:
My statement should have read "A lot of" or most family's" not all. For that I am sorry.
That?s all I was after all that is needed.
Actually I suspect we are pretty much in agreement on the subject. I do wonder if it is 'a lot' or 'most', doesn't really matter because it's too many any way you look at it.
I had a choice when I wrote this and I decided to limit the mistakes and bad choices of my times to myself (or my own) so I choose "me" instead of "our". I'm kinda a sticker about personal responsibility sometimes. I don't really understand how you read it that "I was saving the world"? The blood sweat and lives refers to our predecessors and ancestors who did the best they could and lamented the simpler times of their youth as well.Quote:
"To give a blanket condemnation of our society is an insult to both those who have gone before and gave their blood, sweat and lives to make positive changes and to those who come after me and have to try and deal with and fix all of my mistakes and bad choices."
Have fun
Paul
I've never had sufficient common sense to avoid jumping into such discussions.
My mother is an RN, retired now after more than 50 years working in various aspects of Nursing. When my siblings and I were growing up she often worked off-shifts and weekends. My step-father worked as well. What happened, in my case, was that I learned to cook, sew, do laundry,keep up with household clutter, while maintaining high grades, playing band instruments, earning an Eagle Award, and winning a Naval Academy appointment. Working parents don't necessarily lead to failed children.
We were expected to do well in school and in our extra-curricular activities. We also had designated household duties. No excuses were accepted for failure. Failure meant loss of privileges.
In those days, kids weren't given cars when they turned 16, parents weren't expected to pay for university. Graduation from university was expected to happen after four years. Very few kids has televisions or other electronics in their rooms unless they built them.
Expectations were the key, parental review and oversight was a large factor, and still is. Don't want your kid watching sex on TV? Easy, don't let him have a TV in his bedroom or visit friends who do. Don't want him looking up porn on the internet, the same logic applies. You are responsible for your kids behavior.
Mine are grown now, turned out pretty good. I'm proud of them. But I never expected any one else to have to monitor their behavior.
It may take a village in some cultures to raise kids. But here, it takes involved and aware parents. I don't accept the responsibilty for raising any other kids than mine.
We all say that courtesy and civility are in a downward spiral. I agree. A large part of that comes from kids who were left to the village and their peers. Parents who take small children to movies, concerts, good restaurants, etc, are not doing the kids a favor; they're imposing on the other attendees and patrons. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've had a meal or a concert ruined by someone else's isistance that their small child attend and roam free, to be raised by the village. Some one else's child at my dinner table is not education but imposition and poor manners on the part of the child and the parent.
It may take a village, but it shouldn't. I'll police my behavior, but not because I'm worried about what your child may hear. I police it because that is the way I was brought up. That's what I imparted to my children. I've fulfilled my part of the social contract.
If what they may hear or see worries you, stay home and monitor their usage of today's electronics.
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aka Cap'n Yid.
Stev Lenon, 91B20'68-'69
When the dawn came up like thunder
Like many of you, I can look back at my upbringing and be thankful. My parents did what I think was an excellent job. We learned about responsibility, getting along,the value of work, and the difference between right and wrong. We also learned that choosing "wrong" often had painful consequences. That's not to say I didn't still choose it sometimes.
I look at the way a lot of people bring up there kids nowadays and just shake my head. It seems that parents are afraid to discipline their kids, to teach them right and wrong, to let them know that there are some behaviors that are not appropriate in public, etc. I think that many parents feel guilty that they don't get to spend the time they feel they should with their kids. The notion of "quality time" keeps parents being the "bad guy" when they are with their kids.
I once heard someone say "Parents are spending so much time trying to give their kids everything they didn't have that they forget to give them the things they did have." Things like restraint, self respect.
Of course, there's the other side of the coin...something I'm seeing more of. I don't know whether it has something to do with where I'm living, or a major change in values. But, I'm seeing more and more people I know who are single income,two parent families. I also know a ton of people who are homeschooling their kids. On my street(there's six households with school age kids) every home has at least one parent that is at home or works out of the home. Maybe the pendulum is swinging in the other direction now...
[This message has been edited by chascomly (edited 01 February 2005).]
Just found this at the bottom of the page and must say that Paul has it right about VFS. I was there from the beginning and here for about a year and a half. I think some people are blowing the pictures and comments out of proportion. There has never been pictures of naked women posted that didn't automatically come down. The pictures are what you see in any magazine. The problem that the administration objected to and I agree was the locker room language associated with those pictures. That language does not include swearing but may include something like "I'd hit it". granted it's not appropriate but I don't think we can protect any kid from language like that.
OT does get hot during political or religious discussions as would a church or political office. Again there is no swearing involved 99% of the time. Most people handle themselves with decorum and respect and a few don't. As FAOL is a community with a norm so is OT. The norms are different with both groups enjoying the "safety" of their own norm.There are very many similiarities including posters from each board feeling territorial about their board. This is not a bad thing or specific to bulletins boards this is how neighberhoods, towns, cities and nations behave.
I think if you enjoy a good political debate with a minimum of intereference than you would probabaly enjoy that board. As I said I have been on that board from the beginning and gotten into many disputes with board members but I can say with certainty that the person I argued with today would be one of the first people to help me in crisis. That is what community is, virtual or not. You have a great group of people here as there is a great group of people there and I guess you just have to decide what you want on any certain day.
BTW, OT is now moderated by a minimum of 8 moderators of which I am one. I think I have a good sense of what is offensive and what isn't. I better, I make living counseling and talking people all day. My take on what may be offensive just might be a bit more liberal than JC's and maybe not. I can tell you this people come in all flavors and all those flavors to some extent get nurtured there. In short it's a bit of what America is supposed to be: freedom of speech, freedom of dissent, without causing harm to others. Hope to see you over there if you choose and if not over here. Andre
[This message has been edited by andre517 (edited 07 February 2005).]
[This message has been edited by andre517 (edited 07 February 2005).]
There's a lot of long-winded replies to this thread... I ain't got much to say but, gotta agree with everything slenon writes!
If you have kids, surely they are YOUR responsibility, and NOT 'the villages??
Too many people blaming everyone elses society for their own failures in childraising= too many delinquents on our streets and too many parents blaming someone else!
There's a lot to be said about castration!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IMHO
Andy
I spend a considerable amount of time on that OT board because I find I can get bright opinions on matters of interest to me. I was bothered during the peiod that it was essentially un-moderated because occasionally....and it was occasionally...something untoward would get going. (I never saw anything downright poronographic.) What Paul and Andre say is accurate.
Usually a lurker, but I have to respond to the tone that this thread has taken. In reference to the "good old days", weren't black puummeled with fire hoses and attacked by dogs while marching for their basic human rights? Weren't women much less free to participate in our society? Sorry folks, but you paint a far too rosey picture of the past.
I guess we could find a lot wrong with our past depending on how far we go back, and yes obviously the things which were done against blacks were wrong as were the treatment of our native americans. Can we fast forward?
Anyone remember when kids chewing gum in high school was THE biggest problem - not teachers having sex with students? Or guns? Or drugs?
That is a major cultural change.
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LadyFisher, Publisher of
FAOL
And again a major cultural change was allowing blacks to drink from the same water fountain at said high school. Sorry, as one of the younger generation I get a little tired of being run down by what is often a selective memory of the past.
wvtrout - sorry to pick on you, I went to high school in the 1950's, we had black, white, brown and asian in my high school. There was no segregated anything. I assume you lived somewhere that had real problems.
You can choose to relive that if you wish.
If you do not see any other cultural changes since then you are the one with the problem.
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LadyFisher, Publisher of
FAOL
LF - someone once said that "nostalgia is a sign of old age..." http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif
WV - I don't think anybody here was saying that they thought the old times were better as a whole. From what I've read, I saw people saying that there was a time when people were more courteous and respectful. I don't think that anybody really wants to go back to "the good ole' days." Yes, there are some things that we wish had been carried forward, but there are a lot of things that we are glad have been left behind.
I know that the younger generation(I count myself in there) gets blamed for a lot. In many ways that's unfair. But we don't have to live up to that stereotype. Anybody can choose to step out of that role that is projected onto the younger generation, and be a small example of something other than the stereotype.
Charlie
Fair nuff. Just something that has always gotten hackle up.