Taper Patents?

Are Tapers patented? If not.....

The topic of bamboo blanks made overseas selling for a fraction of American made blanks has come up several times. If a particular taper is not patented then what's the difference of an import shop making you a blank based on the same taper as an American custom shop?. Other than 1/10th the price perhaps?

-Quality may be better? Possibly. but 10 times better?

-Material? The cane came from Asia in the first place didn't it? That just means the the local guys HAS to to pay more for imported material. However the material is only a fraction of the cost of a cane blank to either.

-That leaves just labor? Just because a local custom shop charges $big bucks/per hour to build you a blank, if material and craftsmanship are roughly equal, (Lets assume they're close for sake of argument) then it's down to paying a few bucks/hour or 50 bucks/hour for that blank?

So if the taper is not patented and you're getting a comparable product are you just paying alot more to say it's Made in America?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for buying locally, but there's a certain limit to practical economics. Buying a handmade automobile will get you the best craftsmanship available, but at a price only the Bill Gates' of the world can afford. That leads to the questions of WHY do want that super high priced product? So you can say 'This is a custom bamboo rod made just for me'? But thats another topic.

I've looked at imported bamboo blanks, and would buy one for sereval reasons.
1- They are economical in the overall realm of bamboo.
2- I dont fish for trout so I dont need a super light/delicate action.
3- I've always wanted a bamboo fly rod, just because they look really really cool.

As one who has worked hard in the past years to try and wrap my head around this same question because i want to build them myself and sell them I honestly can say the closest to an answer I have gotten is quality.... 10 times better maybe not but not far off either. You really need to pick a boo builder and I mean pick him like he's going to be the one that has your back before you go into battle it's the subtle things that really make good boo, good boo. I have built several PMQ's and not just the tomato stake ones either I have built some from good tonkin cane and it takes a trained hand and eye to know when and how to do everything. Now all that being said the is a Payne taper a Payne taper??????? Pretty much but is it built from high quality cane or run of the mill with really good power fibers or decent power fibers, is it built by a master or a 15yr old girl payed .03 per hour to stand and feed strips into a machine, is it truly a labor of love or an end to a mean?????? The gentle man that has been working with me to learn all these intricate details told me to never build a rod to put food on the table, if it comes to that go out catch a fish and eat it with another rod. Only build because you love it and want to do it. Honestly though if it's something you want just to have and use once in a while the choice is up to you. I'm not going to tell you that one is truly the best end all be all of bamboo fly rods because I have seen the ones that come from over seas and they really aren't all that bad, but the ones built here for a premium price aren't all that bad either. As for buying local I agree, I'll buy everything I can from my local shops and suppliers until I find a deal that they can't beat.

Steve

To all those who think american rod makers should work for overseas wages.

As an american bamboo rod maker I must ask the question. What do you think my wages should be? It takes me 60 - 80 hours of labor plus the material to make a bamboo fly rod. Do you think I should work for a wage that is any thing less than your base wage?

fishbum

My point exactly fishbum. That is the very reason I believe I will never build a boo rod for anyone, I simply can't jusify the time and effort it takes at the price it would take for me to do it. I'm a bargain hunter and i keep that in mind when I build something for someone unless they tell me that price is not an option and that they want .............. whatever. I have trouble asking people to pay the kind of money for a rod that i personally wouldn't pay myself. Not to say that we're not comparing apple to apples because i don't for a second believe that we are.

Steve

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Originally Posted by fishbum

To all those who think american rod makers should work for overseas wages.

As an american bamboo rod maker I must ask the question. What do you think my wages should be? It takes me 60 - 80 hours of labor plus the material to make a bamboo fly rod. Do you think I should work for a wage that is any thing less than your base wage?

fishbum

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I can equate this to another business that I am intimately familiar with, saddlemaking. The average custom saddle would take between 30 and 60 hours to complete. That is 30-60 hours of actual time working on the saddle. It does not include time for glue or anything else to dry or soak up. That saddle has to sell for a minimum of $3000 for the maker to pay the bills and make a living. There is no question that a custom built saddle with the maker selecting the hides and other components will be of a much higher quality than the mass produced saddle from India, China, or Mexico that sells for $500-$1200. However, there is a market for both.

There are folks that want something special that can not afford your boo rods. Those are the folks I'm after. They are not your customers because they can not buy your product. I'm not taking anything away from you because you were not going to get it anyway. What is the difference here between these overseas blanks and the superior product you provide and the Japanese rods vs. the older still sought after American made rods like Payne , Heddon, and others? Not much, methinks. Two distinct markets in both cases.

Another little tidbit to think about is that the folks that get converted to a custom rod at a lower price are the same ones that will likely move into your product later. Once they have a custom rod, they are not going to want to go back to mass produced. Once they get the disposable income, your product is what they are going to want and I have primed the pump for you.

Don't look at this as an assault on your business, but rather as something that will ultimately increase business for you due to the larger number of folks being introduced to bamboo.

Did not mean to open can of worms, and I'm certainly not putting down the quality of the local custom builders. I appreciate fine craftsmanship. My main focus is on the tapers. Are the tapers coming out of Asia comparable to what's being produced State-side? Not are they equal to, are they comparable to? Do they work, will they cast at all? If they are as bad as some may say, be objective and compare the differences for us. Tell me WHY a $2000 rod is worth that over a $200 rod? Besides the fact that is cost you that much to build. Are they made that much differently?

Someone stated here several months ago in another thread, that some foreign rods were based on big name American manufacturers high-end tapers (stolen taper specs?). If they are not patented and someone else produced a similar product and sold at a much cheaper price? Does that make them automatically an inferior product because the factory paid their employees pennies on the dollar compared to what employees in say, a certain company in Manchester, Vermont might get?

As for your time as a builder, It's only worth (a) what people are willing to pay you and (b) what you're willing to work for, same goes for EVERY profession. With any service/product, what you charge doesn't MAKE the final value worth that much, just that that is how much it you need to charge to produce it. If people will pay your price and you make a profit, you stay in business. What you have convince people of is that you're worth what you charge.

I really hope I didn't comee off as upset I didn't mean anythingin that sense and i doubt that fishbum did either. It tends to sound that way when you talk about something you feel so pashionate about.

As for are they worth it.... the three or four I have played with were not too bad and honestly I have thought about buying one just to have it and really take it apart and see how well i's made (measure the taper more than anything to see how precise they are. As for the rest of it you know go for what you can get. heck if you have the know how build yourself a quad, man that's a great rod and so much fun, super rewarding when you finally cast it the first time.

Steve

This is one of the pitfalls of a BB Forum. We can not see each other and get the cues we normally would in face to face conversation. It finally dawned on me that I might have come off as upset or dismissive, which I was not intending at all.

So, I'm assuming no one has a clue about tapers be patented?

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Originally Posted by Bass_Bug

So, I'm assuming no one has a clue about tapers be patented?

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What?!? You want the original question answered? :)

I'll do some digging.

I went to

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/res...vance&srch=top

and found all kinds of strange patents on various ways to make bamboo rods but didn't spot anything with a cursory look. I found a patent on a rod made of resin impregnated bamboo, one that scalloped the pieces to lighten things, some novel flexible ferruls, and bunches of other neat and strange stuff but nothing specifically on tapers. The search was for "bamboo fishing rod"

Clearly, if any of the classic tapers were patented, any such patents have long since expired. Hundreds are published in books and on rod makers bulletin boards for anyone to use. Among current makers, it is considered a bit unethical to build and sell a rod that is a copy of one of the old masters without clearly stating the origin of the taper. As for the Asian products, many are touted as being copies of or based on some of the most popular tapers from the past. So, are these tapers "stolen"? I don't think so.

As in all things, there is quality and junk and a lot of area in between. Today it is possible to use CNC equipment to rapidly produce precisely beveled strips to any taper you desire. As others have pointed out, duplicating the taper does not mean you get a superior rod. There are just too many variables in materials and opportunities for shortcuts in the methods to judge a rod strictly by its taper. Personally I believe the current crop of American makers are turning out the best bamboo rods ever made and many are even worth the price they are charging for them. The availability of cheap Asian blanks won't change that. In fact it may give many an opportunity to try bamboo who would never otherwise do so and thereby in the long run produce more customers for the upper end rods. The risk is that many of them will try a cheap poorly constructed rod that does not perform and write off bamboo forever. That would be a tragedy in my opinion.

I'm not really sure a taper could be patented. The way I see it, it's kind of like the Colonel's secret recipe. If someone learns the 11 herbs and spices, and the amounts to combine, how can you make it illegal for them to make delicious chicken? I'd think that the patents would come into play with machines to make the rods and materials (more applicable with graphite than boo, though it comes into play there as well). Using the car example...it'd be like Ford patenting putting the gas pedal on the right and the brake on the left.

I might be way off, though, I dont have any experience with patents, but that's how I see it.

China Syndrome
My quess is that the underling purpose of your question is to find a way to prevent the importation of China bamboo blanks and rods, I do not believe you will be successful. The taper has been used and described for the community to use and copy for years. So just like the graphite rods and blanks, I am sure we will be seeing an influx of Asian bamboo blanks and rods. Now that being said some people will always pay extra for hand made quality, customization, and having something unique. However you may find that those numbers go down.
Remember that Sage, T & T, Scott, Winston and others needed to adjust to the influx of Asian graphite rods and blanks. So I think that the makers of custom bamboo rods will need to do the same. The blanks are here and probably are not going away. So if I were you I would work on my business plan.

I can't imagine that access to tapers will make any difference in the quality of rods being produced in asia. Even if they do use well established tapers, the people making the blanks have no idea what they're supposed to feel like when they're finished. Not to mention they probably won't be tempering the cane very well (if at all), they won't take care to avoid worm holes/grey nodes/weak cane, won't see a problem with glue lines/gaps, probably won't use any sort of node staggering, etc...

I would agree with what you have stated. However from my experience they will learn and make adjustments. And, it will be our purchasing requirements and the demands from their US distributors who will teach them. They will see examples of what is expected from them. I also beleive that they will eventually make good commercial made rods and blanks. I would not expect them to turn out high end custom rods. I would not underestimate the China business person. They are learning to be capitalist.

I have to agree with hardhat. The quality in goods coming from China is on the upswing. I think a good many of us can remember when "Made in Japan" was just as bad or worse than "Made in China" is now.

What is it that's stopping them right now from making the same quality of rod that any competent U.S./European/Australian maker is currently producing? They've got acess to the exact same materials, there are plenty of books on the subject (plus the internet sites), and there are a number of tool/equipment suppliers. So, what is it?

My career as an engineer for a mining equipment manufacturer took me to all corners of the world including a couple of years working in China. I can only confirm what you are saying. The Chinese are not becoming capitalists. They have always been capitalists. Only now the political system allows them to utilize their innate characteristics. They will get better. They adapt quickly. They will strive to meet the customers requirements. But I also learned that you will get exactly what you demand and specify and no more. They are very good at leaving out everything you didn't specifically ask for and then calmly telling you "you should have included that in the spec if you wanted it. Oh of course we can do that but the price will be different." The chinese manufacturer doesn't know or care any more about fly rods than he does about running shoes, snow boards, or smurfs. They are just things to be made.

Now, all you have to do is write down the detailed specifications of what makes a quality fly rod and your are in business.

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What is it that's stopping them right now from making the same quality of rod that any competent U.S./European/Australian maker is currently producing? They've got acess to the exact same materials, there are plenty of books on the subject (plus the internet sites), and there are a number of tool/equipment suppliers. So, what is it?

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I've been reading this topic for a couple days but haven't replied to it mainly because I know this can be a "hot topic" lol. But I'd like to add some thoughts now to this.


Just to address the above quote as well as other reply's ....There is a bit of difference between the lower cost china cane blanks and most USA can builders. As a custom rod builder for a living I do "some" cane rods but I don't build the cane blanks myself, but my best friend&fishing buddy actually is a cane blank builder and he owns a comapy called splitcaneblanks.com so we've talked quite a bit about building cane blanks. And I don't claim to know everything about cane, but I do know some because of my friend that builds them and I own a good half doz cane rods built on his blanks so here goes.....

First off...as someone on Page 1 of this post mentioned. When it comes to cane there are different power fibers to different cane, just like there are different strands of graphite in graphite rod blanks. So Cane #1 may be different than cane #2 when talking about building cane blanks.

Also...when my friend Bob builds a cane blank a good amount of his time is not only spliting the cane and planing it, but he spends a good deal of time during binding to make sure there's no glue line, and afterwards he spends time rolling the blank to make sure it's straight as it can be. Thats one place where some fo the lower cost cane blanks from china fall short. Some of them have glue lines, aren't perfectly straight, and I've even seen a few that where "twecked" (the flats where 10-15 degrees off from one guide to the next).

So there in lies some of the difference in price. It doesnt mean the china $250 cane blank wont fish well because most times to your average angler it will fish just fine. But if someone is looking for the best quality cane blank that has a great hand rubbed finish, perfectly staright, good quality laped and perfect fitted ferrules, best quality cane...then to them it may be worth paying three times as much as the china blank.

just all boils down to what your willing to accept and call "good" is all...and how much your willing to spend.

Steve

I'd suggest casting a number of bamboo rods prior to purchasing one. The differences, even in top quality rods, are significant. It'll be worth your time. Go to a fish-in. Toys come out during the early evening... I have personally seen 10 very high quality boo rods available for casting in a one hour time frame. That was memorable for me and clearly defined my choice of a rod and maker. It's an oddly personal choice due to use of biological material and the skill involved, as noted above. Take your time... Look for members/friends in your geography if you can't make a fish-in. Fish-ins are remarkable events. That's another subject...

Dana

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Originally Posted by Photojoe4

I can't imagine that access to tapers will make any difference in the quality of rods being produced in Asia. Even if they do use well established tapers, the people making the blanks have no idea what they're supposed to feel like when they're finished. Not to mention they probably won't be tempering the cane very well (if at all), they won't take care to avoid worm holes/grey nodes/weak cane, won't see a problem with glue lines/gaps, probably won't use any sort of node staggering, etc...

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That's a big assumption. The average fly angler that has never held a bamboo fly rod could probably not tell the difference of where the blank came from. Not saying there wont be visible differences in quality and appearance, just saying they look pretty darn close to the untrained eye. If they have no idea what they are doing, why are they made to at least look like a $1000 domestic blank?

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Originally Posted by Photojoe4

What is it that's stopping them right now from making the same quality of rod that any competent U.S./European/Australian maker is currently producing? They've got acess to the exact same materials, there are plenty of books on the subject (plus the internet sites), and there are a number of tool/equipment suppliers. So, what is it?

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What's stopping them is machine-made/mass-production processes, profit margin and the fact that the workers are just factory employees and not owner-operator craftsman.

Who's charging $1000 for a blank? Most every well established rodmaker that I know charges around $3-600 for a ferruled 2/2 blank.

As for not having machine-made/mass-production processes, I can think of a couple dozen rodmakers who are only using a planing form/block plane and somehow manage to produce a quality product. The problem with the workers isn't so much that they aren't owner/operators, but more that they don't have any understanding of how/why these products are being used.

I think you hit on the real sticking point: profit margin. When you figure in the cost of the materials and the labor involved (even WITH machine-made blanks), there isn't any real way to make a significant amount of profit on them. Not unless your goal is produce them as fast as possible with little or no care given to the quality of the end product.

China labor is cheap. Raw materials are cheap. Businesses not taxed to death like here in the US. In many cases the government subsidize manufacturing. The China facility will be looking at the world market not just the USA. And, they will make what is asked for and what is salable. Look around you and notice all kinds of name brand products now made in China.
PS they are not just making machine made blanks

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Originally Posted by hardhat

China labor is cheap.

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Yes, it certainly is. The workers are paid a criminally low wage.

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Originally Posted by hardhat

Raw materials are cheap.

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In the overall cost of the rod, probably. You've got about $40 for the bamboo($20 x 2 culms), $45 for the ferrules, and maybe a little factored in for the glue.

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Originally Posted by hardhat

Businesses not taxed to death like here in the US. In many cases the government subsidize manufacturing.

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No arguement there. Small businesses especially have been pretty heavily hit here in the U.S. Of course, having the government subsidize manufacturing also means they have a say in what gets manufactured and how.

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Originally Posted by hardhat

The China facility will be looking at the world market not just the USA.

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I can't think of any U.S. rodmaker that woudn't be happy to sell a rod/blank overseas.

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Originally Posted by hardhat

And, they will make what is asked for and what is salable.

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And, as was pointed out, they will make ONLY what is asked for.

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Originally Posted by hardhat

Look around you and notice all kinds of name brand products now made in China.

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Like what? I can't think of any who's product has remained consistently good since they've sent their operations over there.

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Originally Posted by hardhat

PS they are not just making machine made blanks

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I don't see why that should matter as long as the quality is the same.

In my minds eye this is the way I see it.........

Do you want an artisan to build a high quality product that he is willing to stand behind and attest to it's quality and workmanship??? Or are you willing to settle for something of ok quality and workmanship that if it should happen to delaminate or something other to go wrong with the workmanship in the next few years you're just stuck with it and there you go. It's a personal choice and however you look at it tthere are pros and cons........

I'm not defending one or the other and I loook at it like would I rather have THE Mona Lisa or a fair replica of it painted by some unknown artist that will never be worth more than the canvas it's painted on.

Steve

Yup that is the biggest difference-"heirloom" quality or just having a bamboo rod. As in past history and now there has always been a variance of quality in the bamboo rods. Sorry Photojoe4 but you must be living in a cave if you think that quality products are not coming out of China.

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Originally Posted by hardhat

Yup that is the biggest difference-"heirloom" quality or just having a bamboo rod. As in past history and now there has always been a variance of quality in the bamboo rods. Sorry Photojoe4 but you must be living in a cave if you think that quality products are not coming out of China.

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Well, so much for a civilized debate. Best of luck in your mad dash to the bottom. I'll just head back to my cave....

I deal with the competition of China and it's manufacturing on a daily basis. One should not underestimate their resources or resourcefulness. The importation of goods from China will have an affect on bamboo rods just as it does on graphite rods and almost all manufactured products. I do care about the people involved. My desire was to possibly make people aware that this should not be ignored as it may affect your business plans and decisions. I do not desire to see the balance at the bottom of peoples check books being negatively affected. Over the past few years I have seen friends and acquaintences negatively affected by the China syndrome. I also know that just talking bad about the China products will not prepare businesses for the possible adjustments they may need.
Looking at the big picture companies like Sony, Intel, HP, Boeing, Mitsubishi, Samsung, GE, and many many many more have products made in China. Most all of us use products made there on a daily basis So I am sorry to take this discusion out of just the realm of bamboo rods. As my experience shows that good preparation, a good plan, and having some knowledge of your competitor helps. And I fight this fight on a daily basis. Winners have a plan, loosers have excuses.
Sorry Photojoe4, I should not have called your housing situation as living in a cave.

There are no patents on tapers, and it is common among cane rod builders to share tapers, or to actually take a series of measurements like every two inches along the length of the rod. There is an index of those I recall at the BB for cane rodmakers, sorry I can't remember the url, I'm sure someone can add it. As far as pricing is concerned, rod making as an art falls into any art pricing. An item, rod, painting etc is worth exactly what you can get for it. When you put cane rod building into a manufacturing business (as it once was in this country) you may indeed have lovely rods, but no longer 'art', as in the Art of Rod Building.

Ladyfisher was referring to this web address: http://www.canerod.com/rodmakers/index.html, then just click on the tapers link on the left side of the page.

Another taper site is: http://www.hexrod.net/Tapers/index.html

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Originally Posted by LadyFisher

As far as pricing is concerned, rod making as an art falls into any art pricing. An item, rod, painting etc is worth exactly what you can get for it. When you put cane rod building into a manufacturing business (as it once was in this country) you may indeed have lovely rods, but no longer 'art', as in the Art of Rod Building.

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Bingo!

That applies to a lot more than art. I don't care if you are selling advertising, art, rods, or used cars. Nothing is worth any more than what someone is willing to pay you for it.

As with other art forms, there will be those who want nothing but Picasso or Rembrandt while others like less exclusive art. We might all want the Picasso, but most of us can't afford it. Those of you that wish to produce Picasso fly rods will have your market. Others will be more than happy to take care of the folks that can't afford you and that you do not seem to want, anyway.