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I do not own a float tube but I know a lot of fly fishermen that do and they are constantly adjusting the air pressure in the tubes due to heat and cold. Since the latest rage is replacing the air in your vehicle tires with nitrogen which is suppose to be less affected by temperture changes, I was wondering if anyone has tried replacing the air in their float tubes with nitrogen and if there would even be any advantages to doing this. Just a thought and nothing more.....
Interesting. But I have Bladdereless or have had Urethane and they aren't effected as much by Altitude or temp.
First off I hardly ever have significant adjustments....
Sorry I can't remember the details but the nitrogen thing in tires I've read about had as many cons as pros...maybe more
One that stood out was cost...doubt inflatable people want to go there...
And ,Warren, these are my thoughts and nothing more;)...
Last time I checked, nitrogen followed the same set of physical laws as air, which is, after all, mostly nitrogen anyway. Sounds way too much like a gimmick to me.
PV=nrT (although neither air nor straight N2 is an ideal gas, it is close enough)
I definitely see temperature and pressure issues. I live at 5700 feet (80% of sea level pressure) and typically fish above 10,000 feet (~65% of sea level pressure), so the (over)pressure difference in a toon bladder is substantial. I always make my buddy John deflate his tube a bit before we leave the house, and he always says "Oh, it won't matter much", and I make him do it anyway. We get to the lake and it is twangy tight...
And it might be 120 in the back of the truck on a sunny day, with the toon coming out of 40 degree water, so it gets deflated when it goes in the truck every time.
I CAN see that using nitrogen instead of exhaled breath, which is what most of us end up putting in our tubes and toons at some point, would prevent buildup of moisture inside the toon, along with all the other stuff in our breath like bacteria and such that might get icky after a while.
my toon is not a pool toy :DQuote:
Originally Posted by DG
how many toons get inflated by exhaled breath :confused:
i'll stick to using my new high velocity pump and top it off with a hand pump ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Normand
DITTO! Norm
I frequently ( once or twice a weekend) hike 3/4 miles with a tube on my back in the GA sunshine, after driving approx. 12 miles in the start point of the hike. When I was using a round tube with a 10.00 x 20 intertube in it I pump it up once or twice a year with an air compressor. I switched to a LCS4 with bladders last year and will top off the bladders with lung power before starting my float down the Hooch. I have a pump but that's a couple of more pounds to carry 3/4 mile.
Several year ago up in Gemrod's neighborhood, I witnessed a round tube explode as the owner was about to enter the lake. We figured he air it up down on the flatlands before coming up to about 9,000 elevation.
I don't remember the physic's laws regarding the expansion of gases but I under the principles. Like gravity, they are very reliable.
I think my head would explode if I tried to blow my toon up by mouth.
Granted the seat on the H3 and the Navigator is human inflation, but can't imagine trying to inflate the tube/toon that way.
3/4 mile isn't back breaking, heck I walk that to the grocery store for milk, but a K-Pump would work out quite well in that case.
after too many years of smoking, i no longer have the lung capacity for orally inflating a balloon let alone a float tube or pontoon.
i guess i'll leave that up to someone who can put out a lot more hot air than i can. :D:D
i can see my eyes bugging out of my head like arnold schwartzennegers did in the movie "total recall" :D:D
Why not try NO2...? You could start a whole new thing. "GIGGLING" for trout.
No hatch, no fish, no problaymo.
NO SMOKING!
Helium - let your pontoon carry you to the water. :-)
I have topped off mine by mouth a few times. The pump does not go with me on the water or up a trail, so if the sun goes away and the temp drops thirty degrees... More often with the float tubes I have owned than the toon, however. I don't pack in a pump to a mountain lake, and the tube is a lot easier to carry rolled up and strapped in or on the pack.
And as for passing out, I did that once in Montana, and a buddy of mine came real close a month or two ago up on the Mesa filling my backup tube after his broke...
As for the pressure change for altitude, remember that the firmness of the bladder is a function of the OVERpressure inside the tube, the difference between the pressure INSIDE the bladder and OUTSIDE. The amount of air inside doesn't change as you go up (it being trapped by that plastic wall), but the amount outside pushing against the inside does. Air pressure at 10K feet is about 65% of that at sea level, so less to keep the inside air from pushing its way out...
When we were kids, wifey and i filled our waterbed (yeah, one had to have a waterbed back then) with air...talk about a lot of fun trying to even get on it....it looked like a giant overstuffed pillow and it was about 4 ft high in the
middle...we laffed for half an hour trying to lay down on it. It would just throw us off on the floor at any attempt. Shoulda used nitrous maybe.
MontanaMoose
Hi,
I live at 363 above sea level ( so says my trusty g.p.s. ) and I can drive to and fish the other side of a summit that tops out at just a hair over 8,000 feet in an hour and some change.
Typically mid afternoon temps at my home this time of year will range from the mid nineties to the low triple digits, while at altitude mid day temps at this time of year might be in the sixties to eighties. Morning lows here might be in the low sixties while morning lows at the upper altitudes could be hoovering around freezing.
So to some degree, both temperature and altitude effect the transportation and use of our tubes. It's not uncommon for our tubes to be used on more than one lake, at different altitudes, in the course of a single day.
Having said all that, no, I don't see adding one more thing to my list of fishing needs. Inflation and pressure adjustments have always been simple enough, I really don't see adding one more thing to the mix.
As for inflation by breath, I still do it on a fairly regular basis during the warmer months. While I have a Super Fat Cat and find a hand pump to be more than sufficient for inflating it, that float tubes primary use is for drive to, or short walk in, fishing destinations.
Amongst my tubes, I've retained two older styled Buck's Bullet's with twist closure valves. Those tubes are easily inflated by mouth and are my primary tubes for packing in ( miles ) or Mt. Biking in. The primary bladder on the Bullet takes less than three minutes to get fully inflated ( hard ) and the back rest takes less than a minute. As mentioned earlier, the users physical condition, willingness & effort level, their ability to inflate at altitude by mouth, etc are limiting factors.
Best, Dave
Plain old air is approx 8o% nitrogen. I dont see what benifit you'd get by increasing that to 100%. Lot of added cost if you ask me.
By the way, I've filled my toon once by mouth. Thought I'd packed my pump, but couldn't find it once I got to the lake (hour plus drive) figured I was there so I might as well fish. Once I was done fishing and loading the car, I found the pump hiding under the seat. Didn't take as long as I thought it would (not counting the time that I was passed out from all of the huffung and puffing:p)
Kevin
I think this whole N2 instead of air started with racing teams and cars so I checked and found out the following. I thought it might have been humidity all along.
Nitrogen Instead of Air
Most of the teams remove the air from the tires and replace it with nitrogen. Compressed nitrogen contains less moisture than compressed air. When the tire heats up, moisture in the tire vaporizes and expands, causing the pressure inside the tire to increase. Even small changes in tire pressure can noticeably affect the handling of the car. By using nitrogen instead of air, the teams have more control over how much the pressure will increase when the tires heat up.
I conclude if you float tube at somewhere between 125 - 200 mph then nitrogen would be a good idea.
Nitrogen is a great thing in tires. The tires can last longer because there is no (or a lot less) oxygen in them to effect the compounds they are made of.
It's not just for racing, it has proven to actually increase the life of your tires.
Many tire shops now have nitrogen generators to fill the tires they sell.
I had 6 new tires put on our RV last spring at a Costco store near home. I ordered the tires online to be delivered to my nearby store and then they were doing the tires I noticed the Nitrogen set-up and asked the shop manager about it. I wanted Nitrogen in my new tires. He said they put nitrogen in all the tires they mount for free. Makes the tires actually run cooler on the road.
I think it is true, myself. When we went out to the river, I was checking the tires at a gas stop and surprised they were cooler than I ever remember them being before. And cooler than the boat trailers tires, which I always run at maximum rated pressure. But the RV tires use to be the same temperature as the boat tires. (I slap my tires to make sure they all sound ripe, and feel the hubs for bearing heat.)
But for your tube or Pontoon? Nope. I sure wouldn't do that. No gain I can see in filling your inflatable with nitrogen.
Tires Yes. Tubes No. ;)
Incidentally, when you see green valve stem caps... yep, filled with nitrogen.
Here's more....
I have yet to have a tire wear out from oxidation coming from INSIDE the tire. I HAVE seen oxidation on the outside on tires. Putting nitrogen on the inside will slow things down in there, but doesn't do anything for the other side. I for one drive enough that the tires don't really have time to age themselves to death, but for cars that do not get driven much, that is a very real safety hazard. Think boat trailers, too.
Pay attention when you buy tires, and if your tires have been on there very long. Manufacturers and the safety people recommend no more than 6 years old if the tire is in use (mounted and inflated -- even the spare), and no more than ten years from date of manufacture for ANY tire.
Every tire has a Department of Transportation (DOT) number following the letters on the sidewall. The last four digits determine the week and year the tire was made; for example, the digits 2204 would signify that the tire was made during the 22nd week of 2004. The last set of tires I bought was about two months old when they went on the truck. A guy I work with has tires on an old Willys jeep he drives to work that were manufactured in 1980.
I agree, the inside of my tires (even the ones that left me stranded before) have looked like new.
In reading that link "Here's More", I found out that nitrogen molecules are much fatter than "air" (who knows what is in air?).
So their migration through the tire is slower. Pressure loss, causing the sidewalls to flex more, causes excessive heat and stress cracks in the tires sidewall.
I do know for sure my tires run cooler than any of the previous sets did. And they have a six year warranty.
Funny about that 6 year running time, and a 6 year warranty. If they last that long, and I expect they will, I'll be happy.
But I wouldn't use nitrogen in my float tube. Nope, nope, nope. Too much hassle. :(
Ghostbusters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny Edmonds
From the view point of a guy who rode bikes more miles last year than he drove. In my thorny little corner of the world, green valve stem caps often mean " You've Been Slimed ".
See: http://www.rei.com/search?query=slim...34&button.y=10
Best, Dave
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave E
Right on! I can relate to that. GOAT HEAD stickers here so the slime and KEVLAR!
Sonny, if nitrogen molecules are larger than the ~20% of air that is NOT nitrogen, then all the non-nitrogen would leak out and what would be left is... nitrogen!
Nitrogen atoms are about 0.15nm across, oxygen a hair smaller at 0.14nm, but remember that molecules of each have two atoms...
"As a quick comparison, we can use the covalent radius defined as 1/2 the distance between to identical covalently bonding nuclei. This is measured in picometers (1 pm= 1x 10-12 m). Nitrogen's covalent radius is 75pm so the length of a nitrogen (N2) molecule ought to be 4 X 75pm or 300 pm. A molecule of oxygen (O2) ought to be just a shade smaller 4 X 73pm or 292pm. So an oxygen molecule is a little less than 3% smaller than a nitrogen molecule." -- http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_does_t...that_of_oxygen
If you really want your brain to hurt, however, read http://www.getnitrogen.org/pdf/graham.pdf
Notice that it doesn't say just how fast the oxygen actually leaks out of a tire. Days, weeks, months, years?
I know hydrogen leaks out of almost anything, but I have yet to have that problem with regular air in tires, unless there is something poking a hole in one of them. It's not like we don't check the air in them on occasion, is it? I have never gone out to check on them and suddently noticed each one had a 20% drop in pressure.
The argument for nitrogen lies pretty much on the size of the molecules. So if you used carbon dioxide, which is considerably larger than nitrogen and absurdly easy to get (hey--carbon sequestration!!), or something like isobutane (although it is sort of flammable) that has several more atoms in it... How about sulfur hexafluoride?
You can rattle your sabers all you want.
Nitrogen in tires is right now. Green valve caps is the indicator to tire men that nitrogen has been placed in a tire.
And nobody but nobody would put slime in any tire seeing high speeds, throws it WAY out of balance.
But hey, you can put crap in your tires for all I care. I save the manure tea for the garden, myself. Heavy equipment often has water filled to a great percentage, for tractive weight.
I still would not, nor advise that, nitrogen be used in inflatables. :p
There is plenty of information about it around. Assuming you are intelligent enough to use a web link. :confused:
I know how challenged Coloradans are, so I'll try and edgemacate you. ;)
Sonny, did you also see a vacuum pump? Did they vacuum out all the ambient oxygen and other assorted foul gases before they inflated the tires with N2?
Did the N2 concentrator have a dyer filter to take out the water vapor?
Just curious.
Jim
I was going to say the very same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by DG
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...instead-of-airQuote:
Originally Posted by Sonny Edmonds
And heavy equipment usually has calcium filled tires or foam filled. More stability along with weight. I've seen very little water being used (if any) in heavy equipment.
Go back to page 2, Mojo.
See "Here's More" in my post.
And do try and keep up. ;)
Calcium chloride, or something like that, added to water pumped into a 966 Cat loader tires in Wyoming when I was up there in the mid-1970's thru 1982. (Isn't that just salt, really?) Anyway, he pumped it out of 55 gallon drums, and had a water hose as well. It was interesting to watch and talk to him briefly.
All for traction weight for the big loader that moved the uranium ore into the grizzly for the mills crusher.
I believe the guy said it was so the water wouldn't freeze in the sub-zero winters, and it added more weight than the water alone. I don't know if it really didn't freeze, but the diesel gelled in the -60 degrees Fahrenheit winter of '78-79. Shut down production for many days.
That winter also killed 70% of the wildlife in Wyoming.
Like I said, put any crap you want in your tires, or your inflatables.
I have nitrogen in mine. And I'm satisfied they do run cooler than any of the sets of tires before them. And it was free to me. Mounting, balancing, and the Nitrogen filling. :cool:
Running acrossed the desert pulling my boat with the wife and Grand kids on board, It's important to me that I do what I can to make every trip safe.
BTW, I bet neither you, nor DG, knows that sulfur hexafluoride is an insulating gas, SF6, used in high voltage electrical equipment. Heavier than air. And highly controlled (at least, we have to keep close track of our supplies, records, annual cylinder weighting, etc.). :shock: :idea: :rolleyes:
But that's OK, I'll let you bury yourselves. ;)
I just use air with a 12 volt blower for my inflatables. Blows them up, and it vacuums them back down when packing up. So Easy!
Now, stop licking your paws and sniffing DG's bottom.
Thanks for the link Mojo. Interesting.
Uhh, nope. How would you vacuum down a tire that is loose on a rim? :confused: You have to pressurize it to seat it first. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by nowindknots
The N2 station is a fully self contained unit. A plant that compresses the N2 from the air. That much I do know from my limited research (curiousity about it).
They are really cool little plants that sit there and extract the N2 from the air and compress it. At least that is what Costco has.
They sure aren't cheap either! 5-6K $ and up. :shock:
And yes, the one's I have seen do in fact have layers of filtering and drying to remove they other compressed gasses from the product.
But then, I have those steps (filtering and drying) in my own wood shop compressor so I don't get junk in my air tools or sprayer supply air systems.
Here's some advantages to N2, if you're interested.
I do believe, from my limited experiance so far, that nitrogen is a good thing to have in your tires. I wouldn't pay extra for it, but it is good stuff.
Not necessary or worth putting in your inflatables, IMHO.
Don't get your panties in a bunch sport. If you mean calcium choloride, say it. It's just not water.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny Edmonds
And sorry to burst you bubble, I know about sulfur hexafluoride (SF6). Also used in window insulation among other things.
So what does that have to do with this post Mr. Science?
And you can come off your pedestal since most of us just can't see worshiping you.;)
The major element component of air is Nitrogen---78%.
I think the difference in expansion characteristics is diminimus.
OK, so they left the regular old air in the "empty" tire before they put the N2 in. Seems to me that trapped a whole tire's volume worth (percentage wise) of oxygen and a few dozen other pure and compound gases in there.
I'd make them suck it out or give you your money back.
Jim
Anyone know what types of volatiles outgas from rubber?
Didn't charge me, Jim. It's free when you get your tires at Costco.
I do know that they run cooler than any other tires have. I credit that to the nitrogen, since all the other tires had compressed air in them.
And I don't know about you, but my tires get me to distant fishing spots. :p
Ones where I can blow up my inflatables with air and float around.
It's a beautiful thing!:rolleyes:
Oh Mojo, Mojo, Mojo!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo
You are the one who tagged on to DG's post. You said "you were about to say the same thing!"
Well golly, if that's so, one would think you might know what you were about to say? Yes?
Now go back up there, take... your... time..., and read what you said was what you were about to say.
I know of no companies using SF6 in windows. But I do know of many using Argon gas in them. Or claiming to, anyway.
This post is about using Nitrogen in inflatables.
I use nitrogen in my tires that do carry me to fishing places. And I have provided links to resources backing up why.
I have also maintained that air is best used in inflatables.
And as a side note, if anybody did use something other than air to inflate their tube or boat, then got a lung full while trying to blow it up by mouth, they could pass out. Then fall and bonk their head on a rock, or maybe drown. So that, is a safety issue as well.
:rolleyes: (The only exception I can think of would be Helium. That just makes your voice get really weird. Fun though. :lol: )
So.... I think air would best be used in your inflatable. Something you can breath if you goof up.
No pedestal here, Pal. But I don't take carp off the likes of jokers like you, either. ;)
Go fishin. :tieone:
OMG, you must think your something talking to intelligent contributors like two year olds. I got a name for people like you as well.
You said you wouldn't BUY it...so, by all means go for the FREEBEE that is what America is all about!
ditto. sonny apparently i'm not the only one tired of your drivel. hopefully mods are reading this and seriously consider you their next candidate for banning. from berating a guy wanting to save a few bucks on a high end rod to this thread. you're played out man. find some place else to post your rancid thoughts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fly Goddess
No sweat.
I reported it myself.
Now then, let's see what happens from here.
If you act like two year olds, what do you expect?
Don't use nitrogen in your inflatables. It isn't cost effective and could be dangerous for your safety. ;)
Have fun!
This started out as a very good thread.
I am ashamed of a few of you posters. 50 lashes of a wet noodle.
I am closing this thread so lets all go back to playing nice.
Please do not post something on the BB that you would not say in person.
Have fun
Denny