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In a separate thread, it was stated that "be sure that whatever you buy is machined and not cast or injected." I can't help but wonder what the practical difference is in the manufacturing processes. It has been my impression that machined reels will react better to impact (i.e., dropping or banging around), but I don't know any other differences. Could someone please enlighten me?
Thanks.
I talked to someone via "chat" on the Orvis site with this same question, using their Battenkill Barstock reel and their Clearwater reel as examples between the machined reel and the cast reel. The only pertinent issue he raised was the difference in weight; the BBS is about 16% lighter than its Clearwater counterpart. But if you look at the photos of the two reels on their site, you will see that the BBS is heavily ported on both sides, while the Clearwater is ported on one side only (and, it appears, not as heavily as the BBS). Therefore, I tend not to put too much "weight" (pun intended) on the difference in avoirdupois.
He didn't mention any difference in resistance to impact.
Any other input? Anyone?
OK, so I'm a materials engineer by degree, but that was a very, very, very long time ago. However, what I'd suggest is that a cast reel is likely made of a more brittle material, and may have more voids in the material than one that's cut from a billet. A machined reel will likely survive impact (like dropping on a rock) better than a cast reel (I said likely, not for certain. I'm sure someone has a pile of cast reels that they've dropped from 10K feet that are still scratch-free).
One thing to be concerned with however, is some companies are probably casting reels in near-net shape, then machining the surface to be able to sell them as "machined". These would likely have the same properties as cast reels, not machined ones.
If anyone wants to call me out on this, go ahead. It's been a long time since I did any true metallurgy, and casting/forging/machining was not my specialty.
Thanks, 92Esquire, that's precisely the kind of information I'm looking for. My inquiry is not purely academic; it seems to me that some very reputable manufacturers are beginning to bring out cast reels that, otherwise, have quite desirable characteristics. Two that come to mind are the Ross Flyrise and the Lamson Konic. Nowadays, in my time of retirement, I'm looking for ways to save bucks without significantly giving up quality, and these reels are becoming more attractive.
92Esquire summed up my understanding. Cast reels can be very durable. Look at the Scientific Anglers System 2 reels for an example with a long history, or the Loomis Venture/Shimano Ultegra for a more recent design. There are many others.
You will find that the cast reals are generally painted. The machine bodies can be painted or anodized. If they are hard anodized they will be more resistant to corrosion especially on the sharp corners. Hard anodize can eat the corners so that they are rounded but that these days is probably limited very well.
Cast parts are not generally anodized because the acid etching process will tend to expose and grow small pits and voids making smooth surfaces appear rough.
I have read that salt water can cause spotting and fading on painted surfaces.
My opinion is that any reel I use is going to be banged up soon anyways so prettyness is going to be substantially reduced no matter what.
Both of the reels mentioned above feature a polyurethane coating, which seems to me (a non-engineer) to be one step down from anodizing, but a big step up from painting. I have some good experience with the polyurethane coating. A few years ago, a saltwater guide friend of mine recommended a Shimano Stradic spinning reel made from magnesium; I was hesitant to buy a magnesium reel for saltwater, but Butch assured me that the polyurethane coating on the Stradic would hold up. It certainly has, over several years now; the reel has given me excellent service. Therefore, I would not be hesitant to buy one of the mentioned reels, given that the manufacturers are so highly reputed (as is Shimano).
many other industries use injection casting of aluminum alloys to make parts which must withstand MUCH greater stresses than a fly reel ever will. Firearms and aircraft are two which come instantly to mind. USUALLY but not always, these parts are cast somewhat larger than the finished part and then machined to the final dimensions.
I wouldn't think any company is going to take the time and effort to produce a fully machined reel which is a piece of junk.
A reel made with cast parts can be every bit as "well made", "strong", "good" or whatever adjective one chooses, as a fully machined reel.
Conversely, low-quality, low-tolerance castings can be made and sold by the boatload for cheap.
We're talking about fly reels-- you're not going to drive nails with it or use it as a car jack, or a lawnmower. I've never had trouble with cast aluminum reels, in salt or fresh water.
As an example here is a fly reel that I do not believe is machined and I own 3 of them with spare spools. I really like the reels and the price and I feel they look good plus the drag is great. As far as I am concerned, I must purchase what I can afford that does the job I require and these reels fit my requirements and price range plus they have a lifetime warranty.
http://www.sageflyfish.com/dyn_prodlist.php?k=144881
The key elements of machined vs. cast reels have been handled here pretty well by people with more technical expertise than I have. I would just like to add that there are plenty of "catch phrases" that get used in the marketing end of the fishing industry like soundbites and talking points in Washington DC. Machined vs. cast sort of fits in that same category nowadays. Not too many years ago, it was a general guideline that cast reels were usually of inferior overall quality. That was reflected in radically lower price points, too. But the manufacturing technology has changed in the past decade or so, and several reel mfgs have taken advantage of these improvements to bring some very good cast reels to the marketplace at a price point that is more-or-less half way between the old "cheap" cast reels and the quality machined reels. Today, whether a reel is machined or cast really is no more indicative of the overall quality of the reel than the phrase "high modulus" means that a fly rod is made of superior materials. There are cast reels that are being deep anodized with great success. The new polyurethane coatings are proving very effective. Heck, even some of the high-impact carbon polymer reels are pretty darned good if "pretty" isn't important to you.
I own a couple of cast big game reels that I use in both salt and fresh water. They're great. The mfg said, "Now, be sure to rinse these off right away if you use them in salt water. They're not fully machined from bar stock, you know. They're fine for salt water use, but they probably won't take much abuse. If you leave them sitting around with salt water on them they will probably rust." Well - I don't actually expect my gear to take abuse. I take good care of my property. Everything is always supposed to get a good rinse after exposure to salt water. I have owned 2 pure 6061 aircraft aluminum bar stock machined fly reels that rusted after being fished in saltwater even though they were rinsed promptly. They didn't have good stainless steel screws in them! The Devil is in the details. I have used these cast reels for a couple of years now (including spare spools) with no signs of wear and tear. The machined reel in the large size comparable to one of these cast reels bears an MSRP of about $400. The cast reel has an MSRP of about $130. And it has a better drag in it too.
The longer you do this stuff...if you're paying attention and eavesdropping frequently...the more you come to realize just how much of the "conventional wisdom" is actually just marketing buzz or commercially driven. It is about catching fishermen more than it is about catching fish. That's what pays the bills. There are some fantastic machined reels out there. I am in no way saying that a great machined reel isn't worth the extra money! SOME of them may be. I have a mix of both machined and cast reels, and will probably acquire more of each. I also have some polymer reels. (talk about a reel that is salt water friendly!) But there are some very high quality products out there nowadays for the budget-minded fly angler. You can have high quality gear that won't fail you without breaking the bank or getting served with divorce papers.
Thanks, guys! All of this pretty much confirms my suspicions, that cast reels can be as functional in saltwater as machined reels, and are usually a good buy, too. I have ordered a Ross Flyrise 4, and will post a review after I get to use it and see how it works in the salt.
Again, thanks a lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyguy66
right on!!! Right on!!!
The quality of casted reel can be on a par with machined reels especially if they are done inside the USA unlike some others country where their metals are particularly softer and with more impurity. You can have a machined reel from China where the metal is not as durable as our USA made reels of the same design nor the near the quality. You can drop a chinese machined reel and bend it really easily while else a casted reel will break off a chunk. As far as finishes wether its painted, lacquered, Anodized or powder coated the anodized finish is best of all looks great to but if not done right or just thin like again other country especially china again its not gonna be good either if their metal is soft because of not using good aluminum with less impurity. This is all done by hardness tester. As long you buy quality reel from USA, Swiss and Germany and maybe a few others but then again I stick to a USA made product just in case you need to have services done otherwise you are SOL with the others.
Good reel as Ross Reels will take care of you if have any issues!Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyFlinger
I have a Flyrise I use in the salt with no problem, nice reel.
Being reintroduced to fly fishing and needing to get my self geared up, I became pretty cost conscious at the very beginning. Holy @#$%^!. Was I surprised at the latest technology etc from 40 years ago. I found it interesting you can spend 500.00 at the drop of a tackle box for a fly reel and yet you can go down to Sears and by a washer with a lot of steel, aluminum, porcelain, computers and switches. I know, I know, washer not any fun and won't catch fish. So I looked into many brands and styles of reels. Here's what I chose. I now have two Ross Fly Rise's with extra spools. The store kindly took them apart for me and I discovered drag system pretty much the same as their high end model. High to low the difference was one CNC aluminum and the other machined steel. The machine steel is then powder coated. Only deal is powder coat may chip if you drop. I do some metal fab as hobby and powder coat some things and find it more durable then one thinks. Now there's the reel warranty. I'm told if outside chips I just pay 20.00 and get reel replaced. So, ......................... how good is that. I'm not saying this is for everyone because some of those high enders are really beautiful. For the beginning budget it works out pretty well.
So from the newby in Idaho, hope this helps. I did learn a few things from some of your posts and really appreciate everyone's comments.
Have a great day.....................Idaho Joe
Not all reels made in the Far East are inferior. That adds confusion, too. Sage's reels are made in China, and they're not shabby at all. TFO's reels are made in China, and the new BVK just won best in show at ICAST. The TFO Prism cast reels are deep anodized and very durable. LL Bean sells a reel I'm pretty sure is OEM'd for them by Okuma that is urethane coated. It costs about $30-50, depending on size (going from memory). It has been reviewed by several independent experts as a great value perfectly suitable for all types of fly fishing up through light saltwater duty. The Okuma Cascade is a polymer reel made in the Far East with a very good drag. It simply will not rust and cannot be bent. They things are nearly "bulletproof." They cost under $50. They come in sizes from 3-10wt. Carl Craig is one of the nation's top aerospace engineers. He has run procurement of aviation systems for some of the most critical agencies of the US government. He also owns Fly Fishing Benefactors, and designs his own fly reels which are made to his specifications in China. They are some of the best reels I've ever fished with. I've been trying to convince him to make saltwater reels for the past 3 years, but he's a trout fisherman and just won't bite.
Just like with everything else, there is a right way and a wrong way to go about manufacturing off-shore. There are good Asian manufacturers and bad ones. The trick is to know the difference and how to insure that you get what you pay for. Buying from American companies that will stand behind their products, whether made in the USA or elsewhere, is the key. Ross makes fine reels and I'm glad they're still making them in the USA. So I'm not trying to discourage anyone from buying a Ross reel. But more choices are good for all of us, and there are some other excellent options out there: Lamson, TFO, Sage, LL Bean, Okuma, FFB...just to name some I can personally vouch for.
I believe the Teton Tioga to be the best reel for the money. They are simple and can be serviced with easy to be had parts replacement by a knowledgable fisherman. I got a BPS Gold Cup reel that I realy like and got it new for less than 100 bills but I will gladly take my Ross and Lamson reels anyday tho. Getting a reel from Korea is not the same as China either as Korea is more advanced and have a lot feedbacks from the USA Engineers so I am only talking about the majority coming from China so as not trying dole out confusing. There is a reason the better reels are behind the counter thensticking out on the rack so big difference in quality.
Guys, I have been trying to figure out what kind of reel to buy for a while and bought a cheap one with an unsealed drag just so I could fish. This has been extremely helpful and educational post.
If you can afford a quality machined reel, IMHO, that is what you should buy. I have machined reals that are over 25 years old and they still perform flawlessly. I fish only heavy saltwater and I clean my reels after every use. When I am casting to a Dorado or Tarpon, I do not want to be second guessing my reel. 92Esquire, I think you are dead on....a great response.
I am in the casting industry, and I have been to China and we machine tools from 6061-t6 Aluminum. Keep in mind that there are many different grades of aluminum. There are also many ways and alloys to make an aluminum casting. First off 6061 aluminum is 6061 whether it is machined in China, Germany or USA. A machined reel is not necessarily 6061 or a grade comparable. the reason that cast reels get a bad rap is that the cheapest way to make large quantities of cheap castings is High presser die-casting. the A380 alloy commonly used in Die-casting has less than 1% elongation (the ability to bend as opposed to break) where a high quality sand or low pressure mold casting can have as much as 6% elongation or comparable to 6061 billet stock. the problem is that the accuracy suffers in the other casting techniques and would have to incorporate more machining.
Long story short:
I believe that a machined 6061-t6 (or equivalent alloy) is a great reel material for both cost of material (as opposed to Titanium, ect) for weight and strength. I do expect that the reels of the future will be some kind of composite
also the finish is what protects the aluminum and varies from manufacture and is worth paying for especially in salt water.
I just returned from a Tarpon trip to San Felipe de Yucatan. While we were fishing, I spent some time thinking about the Billy Pate DD Tarpon Reel I was using and the truly great service I have received from Tibor Reels over the years. I mentally and visually compared my reel to other reels in the panga. In my final analysis "the quality is rembered long after the price is forgotten". Hasta pronto amigos, Tom
When Tibor, Abel, Bauer to name three starts making their reels with a casting process then I might agree. I will agree that for most Saltwater fishing, with daily proper washing, etc the Cast, Painted, Reels will do ok. By the way High Modulus has a meaning also and it translates to lighter rods for the same action in most cases!