Orvis Claims: Speed of a Running Permit?

The Spring 2005 Orvis Catalog features a new Saltwater reel called the Vortex VO2. In the description of the reel it mentions a vast improvement to the drag. It also mentions why they needed this better drag:

Quote from page 33: "A Permit in a full run can spin a reel at 16,000 RPM, creating tremendous friction on a drag surface" End Quote.

Can this be true, or is it a typo? That would mean the handle of your reel would be spinning at a knuckle busting speed of 266 revolutions per second!

That is smokin' http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/biggrin.gif Anyone else see that catalog? Anyone had a fish run like that? I've caught Makos on the fly and I'm not sure if my handle was spinning quite that fast...maybe it was?

Rich

[This message has been edited by flymaker2 (edited 13 February 2005).]

Interesting.

Let's see . . . each revolution of the reel will put out a length of line equal to approximately 3.14 times the diameter of the reel (with line).

Because there are 12 inches in a foot, 5280 feet in a mile, and 60 minutes in an hour, the conversion of RPM to miles per hour (line speed) is about:

RPM x D x 0.003

where D is the reel diameter in inches. For 16,000 RPM, then, it appears that the line leaving the reel at a rate of nearly 200 miles per hour if the reel diameter is 4 inches.

Can permit swim 200 miles per hour?

Of course, I could have made a mistake in the math.

flymaker,

A couple of years ago the Orvis catalog had a similar speed for the bonefish. I converted the speed, similar method used by uptroutfishr, and came up with a similar ridiculous figure.
Hey, why let the facts interfere with good marketing or a lightheaded audience?

Allan

Faster than that if a larger spool. That is flyin! Some of the lake Michigan rainbows move pretty quick on the flats in fall and early winter. I don't know if they go that fast but I broke a finger one year trying to palm the reel(the handle hit my knuckle)

1600 rpm
Assume we are at the core of a SA reel. 1" core = 1 rpm per 3.1" of line or 4 rpm per foot. 16000 rpm = 4000' per minute or 240,000' per hour. That = 50 mph. That would be 50 mph after a minimum 150 yd run. Hmmmm. Sounds like a bit much.

jed

Let?s back into it and see what we come up with.

Couldn't find any data on how fast a Permit can swim, but found out that a Tuna is good for 40mph.

40 mph X 5280 ft/mi x 12 in/ft / 60 min/hr = 42240 Inches per minute

42240 in/min / 16000 rpm = a spool with a circumference of 2.64 inches.

2.64" / pi = a spool .84" in diameter.

So your typical Hardy standard arbor reel, just prior to getting spooled, would be turning at 16,000 rpm with a 40mph tuna on the other end.

Don't know how fast a permit is in comparison to a Tuna, but from what I understand they are a pretty fast fish.

So the claim isn't entirely unreasonable.

That is hard to believe. Even a bullet traveling at 10 times that speed slows down to a halt in a second or two in water. I don't think anything, much less a fish, can travel that fast in water. Even if they could it would only be for a very, very short span. I also did a calculation. I couldn't find data for Permit so I based it on the speed of a very fast fish, a Wahoo. The data source I used is fishbase.org. I was surprised to learn a Wahoo can, for a second or two, move at a burstspeed up to 47 MPH. This would mean a 3.5 inch spool would rotate at 4500 RPM (75 RPS), but only for a second or two. It would slow down after that initial burst. I believe this burst is used to catch their prey and may not happen when hooked and there is no reel drag to slow them down in this calculation. That's pretty darn fast but I think the Orvis people may be exagerating a bit and they shouldn't be implying that a fish can move at those speeds for a long distance while pulling against the drag.

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Joe



[This message has been edited by flyfisherjoe (edited 13 February 2005).]

From the Orvis catalog, the smallest of the VO2 reels has a diameter of 3 11/16".

But, to be fair, their statement is that "A permit in full run can spin a reel at 16,000 rpm . . .", which, as others have pointed out, can happen at 40 mph when the line is nearly all out on a .5in diameter reel.

Seems that they could have said 4,000 rpm, which would have been a more reasonable, and still impressive, statement.

[This message has been edited by uptroutfishr (edited 13 February 2005).]

One would assume that they (Orvis) figured that nobody would sit down and do the math. Way to keep em honest guys!

Interesting, but you can tell it is still winter and you guys have WAY TO MUCH TIME on your hands.

...or, it could be a typo from the printer, faulty math formula, etc. Anyway; instead of na na na na na na na, I sent the post to Orvis for clarification.

I'll post their reply when received.

Testicular fortitude is a wonderful thing; clears up so many misunderstandings!

Quote:

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Even a bullet traveling at 10 times that speed slows down to a halt in a second or two in water.

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Yes Joe that's true, but a bullet does not travel under it's own power. The permit does. However, it does sound a bit excessive to me. Last I heard they have burts of speed in the 30mph range, but 50... I'm not sure about that.

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Ed Mercado
[url=http://www.mercconsulting.com:e1323]http://www.mercconsulting.com[/url:e1323]
Web Design for the Treasure Coast.

Looks like some fish can hit 50!
[url=http://www.nefsc.noaa.gov/faq/fishfaq1b.html:55e77]http://www.nefsc.noaa.gov/faq/fishfaq1b.html[/url:55e77]

That's why we wear ear plugs while flyfishin' down here...the sonic booms can get pretty loud! *G*

Looks like a sailfish is the fastest thing in the water and can reach speeds of over 70 mph.
[url=http://www.ebc-indevelopment.co.uk/sealife/_pdf/pupil/movement_pupil.pdf:12291]http://www.ebc-indevelopment.co.uk/sealife/_pdf/pupil/movement_pupil.pdf[/url:12291]

FloridaFlyer, I guess I didn't explain it too well. The purpose of my bullet example was to point out the resistance of water's viscosity and it's ability to take the energy away from an object traveling trough it. In a high viscosity fluid (water as compared to air) the surface area is a predominant factor. A bullet has very little surface area compared to a permit yet it can not travel very far through water without loosing all it's energy.

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Joe



[This message has been edited by flyfisherjoe (edited 14 February 2005).]

This is a great thread. If anybody wants to do the math on what a real reel that you would actually fish permit on would do that might be interesting for comparison. An Abel Super 10 has a diameter of 3.9 inches.

If it's one heck of a permit and it's stripped all of the line and backing off your reel then the functional diameter is much smaller, makes things a little more possible for the permit. He doesn't have to go as fast to get high RPM, but he does have to work harder against the drag. I might get bored later and do some calculus with this one. . . http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif

In Orvis' defense (sortof), the real test of a drag would be when the line is nearly out, the fish takes off, and the reel is spinning as fast as it possibly could.

Whether the advertising department is pushing the limits of truth is one matter, but I wouldn't think the diameter one would be looking at would be 1-1.5" or so? Right?

Here are the listings from the Orvis catalog . . . if the diameter spec is without line, then the 4" diameter is appropriate.

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VO2 III Reel: For line weights 4-7. 6 3/8 oz., 3 11/16" diameter (SI77LK-61)

VO2 IV Reel: For line weights 6-9. 9 1/8 oz., 3 15/16" diameter (SI77LE-61)

VO2 V Reel: For line weights 8-11. 10 oz., 4?" diameter (SI77LG-61)

VO2 VI Reel: For line weights 10-13. 11 15/16 oz., 4?" diameter (SI77LH-61)
---

Interesting observation: at 40 mph, a fish will pull about 60 feet of line per second from your reel. That must be like fighting a carp.

CARPE CARPIO (sieze the carp)

I don't trust Orvi$....But I am not sure. That number is just hard to believe.

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"Never Say Die"

Uptroutfshr,

You are quoting outside diameters. For this kind of claim, no marketing department would be using outside diameters.

uptrout,

Using those 4 models, let's take an average and just say the reel has:
an outside diameter of 4" and an arbor of 1". That means the average line diameter is roughly 2-1/2". Of course the revolutions will be less initially and more as the line gets closer to the arbor, but lest's put that aside. At 16,000 RPM, what is the speed?

Allan

If the numbers are outer diameter, then the inner diameter must be about two-thirds for these large arbor reels, or about 2.5 inches? They call this the ultimate big game reel, so I have no idea how big these beasts are.

Regardless, I think we can all agree that if Orvis tests the reel for 16,000 RPM, then it will handle a permit. A carp, however, is another story, and Orvis is wise to avoid any claims with regard to this fish.

At 16,000 rpm you get about 50 mph for every inch of diameter. So, 1 inch = 50 mph; 2 inches = 100 mph; 3 inches = carp velocity; etc.

I have no problem believing that Bonefish can hit 40-50 mph. I've hook them and that type of speed is certainly what I would estimate the first run of the average bonefish to be. Smoking!!

Tell you what though, don't let Orvis build your Bonefish outfit. I did years ago, buying a reel, line and backing from them. First hookup on this reel left me with nothing but backing as the line to backing knot failed and the fish took the leader and a brand new line. Had a spare line thank goodness but I was ticked off.

Al

I concur with uptroutfisher. The arbor is what line line is connected to not the outside diameter of the spool. Their best case is when the line and backing are essential gone from the arbor.
Arbor Calculatios:
.75in =36 mph, 1 in= 48 mph, 1.5in =71 mph

all of these assume 16,000 rpm

To much math to figure out.
Lets just say they are fast!

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**MW**

Anybody think to contact Orvis and ask them how they did the math, what assumptions they made etc, or if it is a typo? That might be too easy though all this conversation is way more fun.

-John

This thread is a good example of one of the advantages of large arbor design. The larger the arbor the less abuse of the drag, and your knuckle if you happen to get in the way.

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Joe

The knuckle comment is a good one. If the handle is near the outer edge of the reel, and if the reel spins at 16,000 rpm, then the velocity of the handle as it hit your knuckle would be about 200 mph. This is like the muzzle velocity of a paint ball (never played, never plan to, but I have retained this number somehow.)

After all of my cheap-shot comments about carp, I feel compelled to defend their honor with this picture of a fine Lake Michigan fish. I'm the one with glasses. My host said this was a little one.

http://www.flyrodreel.com/images/tro...pQRw==-300x300

[This message has been edited by uptroutfishr (edited 14 February 2005).]

UPTrout, A little one indeed for the flats. They sure are fun though, aren't they?

Oh yes. Way harder to catch than I ever thought. The first time in my life that I had to chase after a fish to keep from getting to the end of my backing.

Everyone, please accept my apology for turning a fine post on the speed of a running permit into a tribute to the mighty carp. Shall we start another on the speed of a running carp? Don't even get me started on red-horse suckers.

Carpe Carpio.