Printable View
I am about to tie up some Prince nymphs for a trip that I have comming up and have no Brown goose biots. The recipie calls for "Goose" biots. I have got a goodly batch of turkey biots on hand . Is there any real difference of performance between turkey and goose biots?
Thanks ,
perch
I suspect they will catch fish just as well. Fly tiers run the spectrum from those who will tie a fly EXACTLY as shown in the recipe, to those who will tie whatever they can concoct to catch fish. I find myself well towards the latter end of that scale, and am happy in my position.
In other words, it is ENTIRELY up to you how you tie the flies. There are no rules, no Fly Police who will come to your house and inspect your flies for historical accuracy and traditional values.
There are just fish and people with opinons.
Having stated mine, I will sign off.
Dennis
Well other than the fact you know that one is Goose and the Other Turkey. I can't for the life of me think how the trout will be any the wiser.
However if a trout comes up and studies your fly using a Jewelers Loop and a Micrometer, then refuses it. Please E-mail me the Location. Have Fun. Jax
Perch-
I think you'll find the turkey biots are even easier to work with than goose because they're longer and easier so handle and should be fine as tails and "wings" on the prince and tails antennae on stonefly nymphs--- and it's an even better choice than goose IMHO for wrapping biot bodies and I substitute it all the time in dry and emerger recipes that call for goose biots (since they're longer than goose you can get more wraps out of them to cover longer shanks and/or have more to grab when wrapping)
mark
Have to disagree Dennis, I can point to many examples of Fly Police. Not only here, but at my local TU and local fly fishing shops. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by DG
I do have to agree that I am not one of them and often "go rogue" and tie patterns with no only substitutions but flies that I take different characteristics from other standard patterns and "Mix 'em up" to creaste something that has no name but catches fish.
Life's grand perch, do whatever you want.
Rick
Thanks for the input. My primary concern was in the idea that the goose might have some oil or other "goosey" sort of substance rendering it more advisable for subsurface activity.
Now that we've gotten that out of the way ...
tying shall commence.
Thankyou,
perch
I think that you are thinking along the right lines for dry fly applications but the prince is a wet. When selecting materials for drys its nice to select water animals or birds.Quote:
Originally Posted by perch
Your thinking. :D
The Prince Nymph is one of my go to flys. I seldom use Peacock herl but prefer black mole skin, in a dubbing loop, as it sinks the fly a bit below the surface.
As for Biots I much prefer using the first two wing (primary) feathers from a hen Peacock.
They are sort of a brown/white feather and if I want black I just hit them with a prismacolor pen. I seldom use goose.
I am sure you can use whatever you have on your desk and the fish will have to be your judge.
Of course I seldom tie traditional patterns for my personal fishing. (Too many years commercial tying). I say try different materials, different colors and let the fish tell you what works best an a given day.
Tie lots, go fishin!
Denny
Hi Perch,
There are few materials in fly tying that don't have several good substitutes. I'm a firm believer in using what you have even if you need to take a Sharpie Marker to it in order to get the right color. Jungle cock eyes/nails are the one exception to this rule. Remember, use what you have and don't worry about it. 8T :)
Since geese and turkeys smell different, you dont suppose using one over the other affects the scent??? Then again, maybe we better not go down THAT road again!
My opinion on substitution is, if it is that close (ones birds biots over another) there should BE no problem substituting. And I'm betting once tied no average fly tyer will be able to tell.
A fellow fly tyer once said, if he changes a pattern with a signifagant difference, he would say its a "<name the pattern> with this material instead of that". For instance, tying a Royal Wulff with blue floss instead of traditional red, he would say "It's a Blue version of the Royal Wulff".
However I have sevral different colors of peacock herl. If I tie a royal Wulff with red-herl (only slightly red in color) is it still a Royal Wulff? Basically. Does anyone care? If it works, why should they?.
I substitute things all the time. I haven't noticed any drop in performance of the flies, and sometimes, they seem to be even better.
Ooooooh.
so then, my hares ear nympys made with a fine, fine combination of dubbign mixxed in the coffee grinder attached to some barred mallard never catch'd fish? Hmmmmm
Go and X-periment and tell us how U DU.
Heck, I have yet to use "natural grey mallard quill" for my dry fly wings and I've managed pretty darn good in my 25 years of tyin'
Hi Clay, You have me confused. You suggest "water birds" for dry flies yet aren't you suggesting goose biots for a wet Prince Nymph?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Kunz
Hi Ray, I was always taught water birds or water animals for dry flies, wets aren't as particular. Sure you can use water birds for wets, they don't have to float and if you put a bead or lead them in any way, they are going to sink. Drys on the other hand would not float as easily with materials that absorb water easily. Water animals and birds typically provide materials that shed water more easily than other natural products. These days so many of us are using synthetic materials this discussion might not be relavant one day. Sorry, if I didn't make myself very clear on the first post.
For biots, I'm mostly looking at size these days. Using a lot of turkey biots from this spring's hunt. Couple of weeks from now hope to harvest another bunch of great mariboo and other materials from the fall bird.
If it works, I'm in. :cool:
Coughlin
I was taught that the wings on a fly do not float it. Almost any material can be used for wings on both dries and wets.
What material we tie in on the body will effect how it does or does not float.
Again, whatever works for you, go for it. Let the fish be your judge.
Denny
tyvek makes excellent substitution for biots on a prince nymph
I have to substitute a lot. I don't always have the exact thing a recipe calls for. I don't have the room, and certainly not the money to get all the right stuff for a lot of recipes. So yes, if I think I can swing it with what I have...I substitute. If not I put it on my sticky note "to get list". There are some patterns where I luckily enough have all the materials...but it is not that frequent.
Where do you find water chickens for your dry fly hackle? I got to get me some of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay
Sorry...I couldn't resist. In all honesty though, do you have dry fly patterns that call for goose biots (excluding the ones that use biots wrapped around the shank instead of dubbing)?
Greg
Just about every fly angler is familar with the "Zug Bug" fly pattern, but most have never heard of the "Kemp Bug"!
- Hook: Daiichi 1710, sizes 6 - 16.
- Thread: Black or olive.
- Tail: Peacock herl.
- Body: Peacock herl.
- Rib: Oval silver tinsel.
- Hackle: Furnace, sparse, tied beard-style.
- Wingcase: Woodduck flank or turkey quill, clipped short.
There no references of a "Material Listing for the "Kemp Bug", also there are no photos available for the "Zemp Bug", yet I have read (forgotten where and when) but there are only two major differences between the "Zug Bug" and the "Kemp Bug"!
On the "Kemp Bug", the tail is peacock herl tips, I like using the eye of the peacock herl which is more fragile. The other change is tha the "Wingcase is "Teal Duck" flank feather, instead of the "Wood Duck" flank feather. I do not know who Mr (Mrs ?) Kemp was, or where it was created, but from what I have read in passing reference, is that the "Kemp Bug" most likely preceeded the "Zug Bug"! ~Parnelli
I could be off, but I think he's talking about flies in which buoyancy is provided due to the materials' properties rather than the water's properties (namely surface tension).Quote:
Originally Posted by gpatton
See also: CDC.
Also, its by no means a hard and fast rule.
See also: Elk Hair Caddis, Usual, Comparadun