I thought of tying some flies tenkara style to try with regular fishing - any reason why they wouldn't work?
Printable View
I thought of tying some flies tenkara style to try with regular fishing - any reason why they wouldn't work?
They work great, actually.
What do you mean by 'Tenkara Flies'?
If you mean flies with a reversed hackle such as this -
http://donaldnicolson.webplus.net/_w...4b06709_0a.jpg
or this -
http://donaldnicolson.webplus.net/_w...591f349_0a.jpg
You may (or not) be surprised to know that neither of these flies are, strictly speaking, Tenkara flies.
The first is an Italian Alpine pattern tied in the 1960s,
and the second is one tied in 2006 by myself, and is based on an
article on this site by Preston Singletary -
http://www.flyanglersonline.com/flyt...080706fotw.php
Donald,
Wouldn't Hewitt's Spider be considered a Tenkara-style fly, even if it wasn't created as such?
For that matter, wouldn't any skating-style fly be, in essence, in the Tenkara style?
I admit that I don't know.
Thanks,
Ed
There is no reason whey they wouldn't work on a "Western" fly fishing rig, but they will likely require the "appropriate presentation".
I would define Tenkara style flies that historically originated in Japan, whereas if you do some research, not all "Tenkara" flies have forward facing hackle, there are some with short stiff hackles, some that look very similar to traditional soft hackles and flymphs. Check these sites:
- http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/amago/b-strea...g/tenkara.html
- http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/amago/b-strea.../tenkara3.html
- http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/amago/b-strea.../tenkara4.html
- http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/amago/b-strea.../tenkara6.html
- http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/amago/b-strea.../tenkara5.html
What is fascinating to me is that similar flies, equipment and techniques evolved (I assume) independently from each other in various geographical locations (Japan, Northern Italy, Highlands, etc.).
Tight Lines, -K
That is the problem, 'Tenkara Flies' is not a very precise term, that is why I asked the question.
Any fly, no matter what the hackle can be cast with the appropriate 'western' rod.
As far as flies are concerned, the same situations, no matter where in the world, very often
produce very similar answers. I haven't seen a trout fly, within reason, that can't be used
on any rod, Italian Alpine,Tenkara, Loop rod or Modern Western.
So K, I totally agree with you.
Guess I figured there would be no reason why they wouldn't work, just wondered why the Tenkara flies that I see displayed all have forward facing hackle.
The forward facing hackle style of Tenkara flies is the most common and most known style. The forward facing hackle, especially if it is the softer hackles (such as hen or game birds like partridge, pheasant etc.) will impart more movement and will pulsate when the fly is manipulated while fishing. Regular soft hackle fly's hackle tends to fold back and stay close to the body of the fly.
I agree with Donald that any fly, within reason, can be used on any rod. Tenkara rods really push the envelope with respect to using a light line, though, which is essentially just a very long fly fishing leader. I've only tried to fish a Hewitt Spider once with a tenkara rod. It was so wind resistant that it was hard to cast. Imagine trying to cast one with your fly rod, with a 15' leader and no fly line past the rod tip. I think a very wind resistant fly, like a Hewitt Spider, or a very heavy fly, like a double bunny, are no longer within reason for a tenkara rod.Quote:
Originally Posted by EdD
Most tenkara style flies are wet flies. The forward sweeping hackle, which in Japan is NOT at all sparse, almost acts like a sea anchor, providing some resistance and pulsing when the line is tightened to work the fly.
I'm curious as to size of the Hewitt Spider that you used. I wonder if a small fly, such as a 18-22 would be usable. It certainly might be a hoot for using on brookies.
Ed
It was about 1 1/2" in diameter. I am sure you could cast smaller fly, whether you could get many hook ups or have to settle for just enjoying the show of the brookies attacking it is something you'd have to just try out. It would be a hoot, though!
Due to my refusal to use eyeglasses that I surely need, I pretty much always fish with a size 12 (maybe a 14 on rare occasions). I do always fish barbless flies. One concern I always have in the back of my mind it to do whatever possible to avoid fish mortality. I catch my fair share, and want to make sure they can survive the dance.
I was wondering regarding the use of smaller flies, is it pretty easy to extract the smaller flies? I have no idea or guess as to whether they would be easier or harder, and was curious as to what y'all thought.
I usually cheat and use barbless or de-barbed hooks. That makes them much easier to unhook. The hook remover made by (I think) Orvis is quite nice. I have had it easily remove flies that have completely disappeared down the gullet of a bluegill.
Ed
Ed,
Thanks, I was just curious.
Maybe this should be posted as a "Fly tying" thread but how do you tie a forward facing hackle? Where do you tie it off?
How do you tie a hackle facing forward? Where do you tie it off?
I can only tell you how I do it.
1. Wrap the head.
2. Tie in and wrap hackle, stroking it forward between wraps, each wrap behind the previous one.
3. Tie off hackle.
4. Dub thorax if desired.
5. Wrap body.
6. Whip finish at hook bend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pszy22
pszy22,
The tool is also marketted as the Ketchum Release Tool. It comes in three sizes. For small, non-bead head flies, I like the smallest size tool. I'm going to have to order the largest size to cope with large beads on some of my wets and streamers.
Ed
OK...a couple of points I'd like to address:
1. Why would one think "regular soft hackles" get stuck/lay against the body of the fly when they're fishing with them? Can you watch them when fishing them? Have you seen a video of actual fishing footage of a soft hackle fly in action? ;)
The posterior-flared soft hackle collar only contracts when the fly moves in the direction of the eye - against resistance created by the presence of water. Thus, when you pick your fly up out of the water, the hackles will lay down from the weight of water, friction, and gravity taking their toll. In water, objects have a tendency to become far more buoyant. This is especially true of fibrous materials like feathers. Suspended on a dead drift, a soft hackle collar undulates...regardless of whether it is oriented to the hook shank or eye.
The advantage goes to the anterior-oriented soft hackle collar when you are employing lifting techniques to give the fly a rising motion to imitate emerging insects. Nothing more - nothing less. There's so much BS floating around the US about Tenkara that it's comical to those of who actually lived and fished in Japan for years.
2. You tie an aterior-oriented soft hackle collar the same way you do a posterior-oriented one, except that you put your tightening wraps behind the collar instead of between the collar and eye of the hook. Stroke the barbules forward gently a time or two with 3-4 fingertips to assist when you start. Then whip finish behind the hackle collar. It's no big deal.
Flyguy66, I don't really have a dog in this hunt as I don't have any Tenkara gear and I have no emotional involvement in this thread. I have watched my soft hackles in very clear water, as I try to do with all my sub-surface flies. When fishing a traditional soft hackle back upstream, they do tend to lose most hackle movement due to the hackle appearing to be more or less plastered to the body. As I understand thnigs, they weren't really meant to be fished that way but rather fished downstream. I'll let one of our more experienced and more expert anglers comment as to that point. I have not had much luck fishing soft hackles against the current. I have had much greater luck fishing upstream with a soft hackle-style fly tied with one or two wraps of dry fly hackle. Those hackles seem to be stiff enough to stand up to the currents where I have fished and move enough water to attract a few fish. Like I said, I don't have time to add Tenkara fishing to what I do because I get out seldom enough as it is.
Regards,
Ed
Edit: I realized that the way that I posted this reads the exact opposite of my intent. I should have said that retrieving soft hackles upstream seemed to kill all of the movement. I feel that soft hackles should be cast upstream and fished on a drag-free dead drift. My apologies for any confusion.
Ed,
Thanks for the reply.
I have been a devotee of soft hackle fishing in both the Tenkara and western style for many years. I have fished and tied flies with both Sylvester Nemes and Davy Wotton, two of the fly fishing world's most noted experts of the past few decades regarding soft hackles and wet flies. But let me begin by saying "the more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know." I put that in quotes because I even learned that statement from someone else. I just don't recall who at the moment. Everything we accomplish in life is like that - built out of a succession and menagerie of things we collect which were contributed by others who collected them from others...and so on. No man is an island (despite what the Randian egoists may believe about themselves).
A soft hackle is one of the most effective and versatile styles of flies in water where fish are sight-feeding on insects...period. Adding a soft hackle collar to virtually any nymph will increase the number of takes and/or aggressiveness of takes. Soft hackles fish well in the water column from the surface film to suspended just above the bottom. SH's fish well dead drifted, fished upstream, and fished downstream. They work great in still and flowing water. They are attractors, so you have great latitude in how you tie them to mimic what the fish could be feeding on or just include some known strike triggers and go for it. Several of the most effective and popular classic nymph patterns have a soft hackle collar: Prince Nymph, Red Fox Squirrel Nymph, etc.
Here's the thing, Ed: For the hackles to flair (abduct), a soft hackle must be at a true dead drift in the water or suspended in the surface film. The slightest variance moves the hackles back and forth - toward the eye or shank of the hook. This is what the soft hackle so effective. This is what gives it "life." This breathing gills or moving legs motion is almost always undetectable to any observation by the naked human eye, but it is occurring even when the hackles seem to be "plastered to the body of the fly." The hackles form a long arch down the side of the fly and undulate in and out as water friction moves them ever so delicately. Don't ask me why fish see this instantly and miss that big ole hook sticking the end of the bug they're about to eat! I have no clue. But they do it all the time. It has something to do with the way that sub-pea-sized brain is wired I imagine. It is programmed to do about 3 things I guess: eat, procreate, and avoid natural predators. Fish hooks sticking out of a bug's butt or bait fish's belly and tail just doesn't register as a threat, I guess. That's all I can figure. It's sort of the opposite of why they think a chartreuse spinner bait looks like food: beats me!
Flyguy66, I came to the understanding that soft hackles have to be fished on a dead drift to reach their potential. I didn't realize that the first time I tried them, but I worked my way around to it. (You might say it was an upstream struggle to learn that.) I think that we pretty much agree on soft hackles. That said, I'm still not above using a single wrap of dry fly hackle on an otherwise soft hackle style of fly. In fact, I am pleased to say that the JV rooster which I recently got from Conranch has proven its worth for that, even if nothing else. (And that JV rooster has plenty of other utility. I took it into a fly shop to show off recently and thought I was going to have to fight to get it back.)Quote:
Originally Posted by flyguy66
Tight lines,
Ed
I also use a wrap (or two) of dry fly hackle on a wet fly intended for use in faster water.
Conranch's JV hackle is some of the best soft hackle feather money can buy. Tying a proper soft hackle collar can be part of the issue with how they perform, too. You have to get the collar firmly flared from both behind and in front of it. This can be done with thread, a bit of material, etc., but getting the barbules flared away from the hook shank to where they will remain flared when the most gently stroked by a bodkin, etc. is the objective. This will prevent them from plastering down to the sides of the fly too readily, too.
Denny's JV Roosters are cockerels (not sure if it's spelled right), which is a rooster under a year old. The feather barbs aren't as stiff as a mature rooster, and are stiffer than hen or game bird hackles. They were often subbed for hen and game bird hackle for flies that were going to be used in faster flowing water, jus as CM Stewart mentioned. They are also a good choice for dressing dry flies, though they may require to be dried more often or have floatant applied more often.
They are a great score for the fly dresser.
[QUOTE=There's so much BS floating around the US about Tenkara that it's comical to those of who actually lived and fished in Japan for years.--flyguy66
[/QUOTE]
Fly Guy -- You posted that back in August of 2009 in this thread. Would you consider updating that observation? Such as, has the situation changed, and if so how? If sounds as if you observe from an informed position.
I have been with FAOL since October 1997, and I have always attempted to be a gentleman about my language on this site. When I was in the military, I always attempted to keep my temper in check, I do have a temper, and few times when I am in a rage, I would take a long walk....other times it is "Run for the Hills..Sergeant Mac is having a "Big Bad Mack Attack!" ~Parnelli
SFC McGarthwaite, Steven H.
RA69044546, U.S. Army Retired 1968-1995
~ Steven McGarthwaiteQuote:
I have been with FAOL since October 1997, and I have always attempted to be a gentleman about my language on this site. When I was in the military, I always attempted to keep my temper in check, I do have a temper, and few times when I am in a rage, I would take a long walk....other times it is "Run for the Hills..Sergeant Mac is having a "Big Bad Mack Attack!" ~Parnelli
Steven, you posted the above immediately following my post asking flyguy66 for an update of an earlier post of his; did this give offense to you?
In the course of reviewing the thread to discover why I may have ticked you off, I noted that I confused a "Joined" date as the "Sent" date; flyguy66's post was actually sent in November 2011, not August 2009, so my request for an update was needless. But surely that is not the source of your being apparently upset.
I approve of your method of dealing with anger. And since you mention your military identity, you may be interested that I am:
Cpl. Arnold, Paul F.
US55340292 U.S. Army, active duty 1953-1955