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Paralep- You said it yourself. Most people do not know the strength of 6x tippet material so they will pay fish even longer with a light rod. A larger lined rod will react much faster to what needs to be done. People have to learn to walk before they fly. If they break off fish that is good. Then they learn to adjust to things like the tippet materials strength the rods action and so on. You give them a light rod and it just takes much longer for them to understand all of this. And yes I know it can cost a guide tips. But I also believe you have to respect the fish first.
The other problem I have with the light rods is people do not use them just for small fish or spring creeks. I can't tell you the number of them I have seen brought out here. People expecting to land 15 to 20 inch fish on the Madison with a 2 weight will kill a good precentage of those fish. You Can not put the same pressure on a fish with a light rod as you can with a heavier rod. I am talking about people that bring there little rods and use 3x or 4x on them.
I do not know how I can get my point across any better than I have. Light rods are just not for everyone and they should not be used by new people to our sport. Give the fish a chance and give the fisherman some knowledge first. I think that people that have some know how need to share it but they also have to understand that not all people can handle the same things that they can. Ron
[This message has been edited by RonMT (edited 03 March 2005).]
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RonMT:
We're now lining up in the same row. I tried to make it clear that, when someone is fishing anything stronger than 5x the ultralight systems are not the way to go. One of the differences between what you see and what I see is directly related to the size of water we spend our time on. I'm relating to fishing waters that usually average 40' wide and less. If I were guiding on the Madison I wouldn't want anyone on the water with anything lighter than a 4wt. The possibility of using larger flies must be factored in. The same would apply to our water here. If the possibility of using larger flies exists, nothing less than a 4wt. and, possibly larger may be in order. Simple rule: larger flies, heavier tippets, heavier systems.
I did not want to give you the impression I would encourage/condone the use of inappropriate equipment in relation to the ff'ing situation. I will admit, though, that I encounter too many well-intentioned folks - many of them highly respected - who shoot down the use of ultralight line systems without having invested time to become familiar with their advantages and disadvantages. I've encountered those who have made the blanket statement that these systems are toys. They are not. They are great fishing tools which can provide the ff'er an advantage when fishing light tippets and small flies. All of this said, the understanding we both have is that people must learn to use their tackle well, no matter it be a 7wt., 5wt. or 2wt. As I read this original post, the premise was not to focus our replies on the fact that some ff'ers don't learn the capabilities of their tackle. I was presenting my comments as though I were relating to someone who knows that this is a must do.
BTW, have you had much experience with line wts. smaller than 4wt.?
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As to the smaller rods and lines. I have 3, 3Wgt rods. 4, 4Wgt Rods several 5Wgt rods and many other rods. I think I have one 2Wgt that was given to me to try out and give my opinion on? I have fished, I am guessing now about a dozen different light line rods down to and including an 0Wgt.
Most of my guiding has been on the Henry's Fork, Bighorn, Missouri and many of the spring creeks in Montana and Idaho. I have guided many days on the Madison, Yellowstone and many of the other rivers in the state of Montana and Idaho. I held lisences for both states for many years. But I love fishing tailwaters and spring creeks so that is were I tried to spend most of my time. Having said that I have never seen were I needed any rod smaller than a 3 Wgt. I have landed many large fish on 3Wgt rods with light tippets.
In fact I and a fellow named Hal Janson talked Tom Morgan of Winston rod fame into building his "then" Glass rods in 3 and 4wgt rods. He only made them in 5Wgts and larger before then. Tom gave Hal and I each two rods one of each line wgt. I still use them and they are dandy for light tippets and strong fish. But the 3 wgt is a bit soft for larger fish and any wind that might be around. That was about 30 years or so ago?
A shop I use to guide for and then worked for use to get several Orvis rods for free each year do to the ammount of business they use to do with them. I was given one of the first 2 wgts that they ever made to try out. I used it for about two months on and off.
So yes I think I have had a little experance with the light line rods? http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/wink.gif Ron
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I will not try to tell you what would work best as for as the rod size. lets say you go with the 5 a great all around rod. RIO sells a product called shock gum they also make leaders with it all ready to go. a good caster with a long leader can fish any spring creek with a 5 or 6 weight rod and 7X tipet if you use the shock gum (rubber subber) It will hing but it truly will let you fish a 7X and a 22 or 24 with the same overall results of a 3 or 4
Just a thought and a way.
Rich
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RonMT:
I recognize both of the names you mentioned.
The waters you guide on are much different than what we have here. I would agree on your rod preferences 100%. You have a bit of breeze ;-) to contend with, too. That rings a death nell for any light line system.
I believe we are on the same team, just approaching things from a different playing position *S*
I enjoyed the exchange with you.
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Rich- Just a heads up for you. Shock gum is old hat. Been around for a long time. But here is a new one for you. I have been testing and playing with Dai-Riki's new tippet materail.
Now this is a product that I think is something else. You do not need to wet it and it will not abrase itself when tying knots in it. They have two types one is limp and the other is stiffer. One is called GTS the other and softer is called Dynamic. The breaking strengths are very good and are as listed on the spools not something else. The Dia. is of the proper size for the given "X" and here is the best one. It stretches and comes back to were it was before it was stretched. I have done a lot of testing on this product. So far I am amazed with it. By the way it will stretch about 1 and 3/4 inches with a two foot length. But even with longer lengths it does not stretch very munh further and it is not real easy to stretch. I have stretched it as many as 20 times in a row and it comes back and stretches out to just about the same lengths everytime.
I have been able to fish with it twice now and so far it has worked quite well. I gave two spools of each kind to a very good guide here that has been fishing the spring creeks a lot this winter. So far he to has been very impressed with it. The thing that I have been thinking about is that you can use say a 6xt and it should act a lot like 5x or even 4x because of the stretch in it. I am still playing with it and will give a better report when I am finished trying it out. When I was given the product to test I told them that I would not pull any punches as to what I tought of there product. I get nothing for this information.
Paralep- It was good talking to you also. But I do have to say that we have a lot of spring creeks out here that are small in size and the fish are about as spooky as you can get. Same as were you are I am sure. Just to show. I stopped one time on the road were one of these creeks comes to the road to see if anything was rising. No one was coming so I started to open the door of my truck and when I did light glinted off of the side window toward the creek and fish were flushing all over the place. I bet that scared every fish within 200 yards of the road. I have fished many creeks were you have to sneek up on the stream bank on your knees and if you catch one fish that is it for an hour or so on that strecth of water.
Or one bad cast will put down all the fish for some time. So I do not think Spring creeks are much different no matter were you live or guide. I have also fished several Eastern and Midwestren Spring Creeks over the years and find that they are for the most part about the same. Maybe one day you will get out this way and we can hit a creek or two. Ron
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Ron: Our limestone-influenced streams allow much easier approach to the fish. However, not so with our top freestoners. When Orvis first came out with the 2wt. I felt that there was no place in my rod inventory for such a novelty. After all, I used a 4wt. with leaders averaging 16' on low water and we were experiencing drought conditions We had VERY LOW water!Since I was working part-time in a shop I had access to any system I wanted to fish. The shop owner offered to rig up a 2wt. outfit (The 8 1/2 Western) and I decided to conduct an experiment. I'd fish each Sat. evening after work and I'd alternate between the 2wt. and the 4wt. The first time I took the 4wt. and no matter what I did I couldn't get a fly on the water without putting every fish down in the pool. The second time I used the 2wt. and the difference was incredible! I caught fish and spooked none. Third time, 4wt. and same results as first. Fourth time, 2wt. and I caught a bunch of fish. These are all wild browns. The similarity between your experience and mine, with regard to spooky fish, is that, on the first trip I parked the vehicle near a great pool and, upon closing the door, all fish in the pool scattered for safe haven. Later, I was successful in duping a couple of trout from that same pool with the 2wt. system that same evening. I had never experienced that before that outing. That was Cedar Run. I think it would be great if, some day in the future, we could get together and fish.
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thanks Ron. I'll call John and get some to try.
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uh-oh
Paralep, you're starting to unravel my previous resistance to these light rods! http://www.flyanglersonline.com/bb/smile.gif
