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Hi All,
I am just like Mato. Out of curiosity, I looked in my fly tying box, and have 63 different sizes and models of standard Mustad fly tying hooks, and about 30 unopened boxes for back up.
The Mustad standard hooks are exactly what I want to keep using. I have been using them for about 15 years. When starting out I used other hooks, but settled on the standard Mustads. I have been a loyal customer of the standard Mustad hooks, and am sure that I have bought over 100 packages in just the last few years.
I don't want any changes, just to be able to continue to buy the standard Mustad hooks that my tying is built around.
Maybe I need to stock up before they are gone. Especially on the models and sizes that I use a lot.
This whole mess is painful to me. If this goes through I will need to think long and hard on what to do.
Where are you when we need you Dr. Fish?
Regards,
Gandolf
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Well, to keep the discussion fair and balanced, I like the signature line of hooks much better. Much smaller barbs. The eyes aren't bent down quite so far so they don't close off the gape like the 3906 does in 16s or 18s. (At least for the R series. I haven't bought any of the S series - for sproat bend - which replaces 3906).
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I asked my buddy (pro fly tier) about the hooks...and here is his reply:
"Yes it is true that they are no longer going to produce the Mustad 3399. I understand that production has already been stopped. Last December or November I think.
I do not know anything about the price increases, nor if the other styles of hooks are going to be stopped along with the 3399.
I too am very sad and disappointed as I grew up with those hooks (3399, 9671) and it will be a loss for me.
I will see if I can dig out anymore info from the folk at Mustad.
As you pointed out, (last year or the year before) there was a huge switch away from folk using Mustad hooks when they stopped producing them in Norway.
This is all I know.
I will contact Mustad and I will let you know what they say.
Sorry I can't be of more help.
Rover and out
Ian"
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Lukey's Boat By Great Big Sea
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Mato, I didn't know you were a blonde! Nice portrait!
I should point out right now that I do not use Mustad hooks.
Everything changes. Those of us who prefer that it not happen are doomed to disappointment.
Metal prices have been going up lately. And while there is not a lot of steel in an average hook, it IS both high quality steel, and part of the cost of doing business. There is no way that a company can absorb a large rise in material prices and not pass it on to the consumer. And in case no one noticed, wages keep going up, shipping costs keep going up, EVERYTHING keeps going up. This is not a new thing.
As for redesigning their hook line, that is their prerogative. It is their business, after all. I am sure that their marketing folks know that they will lose some customers, but I also suspect that they are expecting new customers as well. And if they lose all of their customers and the business fails, well, then they will know they made a mistake.
As for those tiers who use these in great quantities... How many of them are paying retail prices for these hooks? And if they are tying and selling, then if the price of their materials go up a dime per fly, then maybe they could renegotiate their contracts and get that cost recouped (and it will pass on to the consumer, of course). I tie a thousand-odd flies per year, for my own use, and a doubling of hook cost would annoy the heck out of me but in reality would make little difference in the overall cost of my fishing. The recent $4+ gas had a MUCH greater impact on my fishing costs.
We call this...capitalism.
PS I am annoyed, however, that Cabelas has apparently discountinued a couple products I use, such as their 1wt rods and Master Guide wading boots. Darn those corporate deciders! :(
PPS Maybe all thier hook-making machines from the 1950s (or 1920s, or 1880s, or whenever) are being replaced.
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How can "the gold standard" for fly fishing hooks for 50? (more) years SUDDENLY develop an uncorrectable problem?
I like Mustad hooks. I tie lots of my dry flys on 94840. I still tie on 3906 and 3906B hooks. I use 3366 hooks. After I drag'em across the rocks, wrap'em around a tree limb, and catch a fish or two--that hook needs to be sharpened, no matter which hook I use.
Chemically sharped hooks? Baloney--it would be like me insisting I must have a $1,000. rod and $100. fly line to catch fish. I'm no Castwell, Geirach or Lefty--but I don't think I catch 1% more fish when I use a size 15 TMC102Y for my soft hackles. (I just do that to irritate my son, who ties his on TMC 100s.)
Now, I would be interested in what Dr. Fish has to say.
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Shaft? I think that's a bit strong... this comes down to basic economics.
If Mustad was making a profit on the standard hooks it would continue making them. Mustad has to be profitable to exist. Would you be happy if they continued making the standard hooks and doubled the cost?
If you tie 300 flies a year, it will cost you an additional 9-10 dollars a year for the new hook. The new hooks calculate to about 30% higher, instead of 10 cents per hook it will cost 13-14 cents.
If you are a production tyer, you probably get the hooks discounted and add the cost into your flies.
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Done....
I've contacted Dr. Fish - let's see what happens.
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We have an email out to Dr. Fish. I have used Mustad hooks right from my start in tying many years ago. I even met and shook hands with Mr. Mustad once, nice chap actually. I will stay with them now too. :)
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Wow, I go out of town to work a show and all heck breaks loose.
Some crazy stuff has been said here. There has been some truth, some rumor and some flat out lies. So, let's all take a deep breath, relax and allow me to shed some light on this.
For the past several years, premium chemically sharpened needlepoint hooks have grown a great deal in popularity. More and more tiers (and anglers who don't tie but certainly use flies) are wanting these premium hooks for their flies. During this time I have watched the Mustad selection in fly shops shrink. When talking with shop owners and sales people the same thing is said over and over and over. "Customers want the premium needlepoint stuff so that is what we are selling." This meant that with our Classic line up which offered tried and true patterns but didn't have "premium" points were getting shut out at retail. Now that is certainly not to be said that folks were not buying Mustad Classic fly hooks because they certainly were but the trend was heading in the wrong direction.
So a few years back I worked with my colluege in Norway to develop a premium offering of fly hooks called the Signature series. The hooks were the world's first and only proportionate hook range. The series was successful and we gained back some market share. The trend however on the Classic continued and we watched the peg space for these tried and true hooks continue to shrink as demand for premium fly hooks increased. Now you are not going to stay in business long if you sit and watch your product underperform and do nothing about it.
As the Signature Series continued to plug along we talked with some key customers who sold a LOT of fly hooks. We made the call to make the huge leap and convert the remaining popular Classic hooks over to the premium side. This meant the hooks would get micro-barbs and chemically sharpened needlepoints. There would also be some adjustments to the hooks so that they too became proportionally correct. It only stands to reason that if you buy a few packs of 2X strong, 4X long hooks in a selection of sizes you must really want a hook that is 2X strong and 4X long or else you would not have bought them. Well up to this point, that was not possible with the Classics (nor any of our competitions hooks). I cannot tell you how many times I have worked shows, tying flies and hear someone say that brand "X" has a great hook model in say sizes 12, 14 and 18 but man, the 16's are just too light or the gap is too narrow or the shank is too short or long. Well this is because the hook is not proportional. So if we were going to roll all these Classic's over into the Signature range it only made sense to follow that same framework we set when we developed the Signature range. On many of the converted hooks, the changes to wire diameter, length and gap will be unnoticeable but on some others, yes, you will see the hook is a bit different.
As for Mustad gouging consumers in order to make double the profit . . . well . . . there are a few things I'd like to say to those that feel that is the case but this is a family website and I want to keep things on the up and up. Some have pointed out that costs to produce products have gone up. Most consumers have no idea just how much the cost of production has gone up over the years. Mustad's desire has been to keep products priced fairly, making them attractive to all but in doing so, price increases over the years have not kept up with the cost of doing business. We have been able to offset some of those gaps with production and logistic improvements but over the past couple of years, the costs have risen sharply. We all know what gas and oil prices did and what kind of price hikes that resulted in all aspects of our lives like groceries and such. Some may say "yeah, but gas and oil prices have dropped dramatically the past few months!" Yes this is true BUT chemical prices and labor prices (including social costs) among many other things have not dropped and in fact continue to rise. We are the world?s only hook manufacturer that produced hooks from steel wire formulated especially for hook making. We have our own proprietary steel so we are not simply able to shop the markets and buy at the lowest price. I can assure you that we do everything we can to keep costs down so we can produce a product at a reasonable price.
It was said we have doubled prices. Well I have not had a chance to see any of our customer's retail catalogs but I did a quick search on the internet and here is what I found.
Mustad Classic 94845 size 14 in a 50 count box - $5.95
Mustad's new R50X-94845 size 14 in a 50 count box - $5.99
Mustad Classic 34011 size 1/0 in a 25 count box - $6.10
Mustad's new S74SZ-34011 size 1/0 in a 25 count - $6.35
Mustad Classic 9672 size 8 in 25 count box - $4.20
Mustad's new R74-9672 size 8 in 25 count box - $3.69
Now these are just a few examples but it's very late and I have to be up early for work tomorrow.
As for just what exactly is happening with the fly hooks. Yes, the vast majority of the Classic fly hooks are no longer going to be made. We are instead moving these hooks into the Signature range. I will forward a chart for LadyFisher and Mr. Castwell to post which shows the Classic number and what it's new model number is (if it is getting converted over). You will now have your favorites, but they will have been upgraded with much sharper points, smaller barbs (super easy to make barbless if desired) and better eye closures. I know it's human nature to resist change but I ask that you keep an open mind as you lean the details.
I hope this sheds some light on the situation and I'm sorry this has many so worked up. I can assure you, we greatly value each and every customer we have and we are always working hard to give the best products at the best prices.
I'll try and keep tabs on the post and field additional questions but please keep in mind I'm out of state working very long hours so my time is limited the next 3 days.
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Thank you, Dr Fish.
No hurry in answering this but do you anticipate there will eventually be bulk pricing for the Signature hooks?
Another example of price...Mark Vendon's post about Jann's Netcraft....$2.85 seemed low so I checked ...he's indeed correct in the pricing...not that bad...and I did see a 50 pack in some model....