Furnace or Badger

The Hackle color post brought up an interesting discussion and an interesting question. When does Badger become Furnace and Furnace become Badger? In present times Furnace has become associated with brown and Badger with silver or gold. Jim Leisenring was of the opinion that Badger was a hackle that had a black center stripe with color clear to the tips. Furnace same black center stripe with color towards the tips but Black on the tips. What this means is that you could have a red or ginger Badger as well as a silver or gold furnace.
Rube cross described Badger and Furnace pretty much as we do now.
I was wondering what were earlier definitions of these colors? Also how are these colors differentiated in England and Europe?
Leisenrings definitions appear logical to me. It seems better to say "Light Ginger Furnace" than to say Golden badger with black tips . Also Brown Badger would sound better than Furnace without black tips.

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[url=http://www.Jimsflyco.com:2d8a6]www.Jimsflyco.com[/url:2d8a6] [url=http://www.flymph.com:2d8a6]www.flymph.com[/url:2d8a6]



[This message has been edited by Jim Slattery (edited 09 February 2006).]

I don't know. I use both, and both work very well. On the ones I get, the badger is more of a silvery color, and the furnace is sort of a reddish brown, but they have the same markings on the feathers.

Semper Fi!

You might take a look at each here and make your decision: [url=http://www.conranch.com/capes.html:ae504]http://www.conranch.com/capes.html[/url:ae504]

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LadyFisher, Publisher of
FAOL

It appears there are differences between US Colours and UK.

Badger here in the UK would always be Black Centre with White outer (presumably mimicking an English Badger fur which is black and white).

However I have seen references to honey badger but I believe this was regarding a US import.

Other colours would be as described eg. Furnace, Greenwell, Coch Y Bondu, etc etc. without to much variation.

The recent imports of Whiting Capes into the UK market has caused lots of confusion as colour descriptions often do not match what we would consider standard.

Until recently there was no Grizzly in the UK. Grizzly or Grizzled would have been described as Cuckoo or Monkey. Your light ginger is Honey Dun, your Brown would be Red. So if you are reading an english pattern bear in mind that what colours are described may be much different than in the US.

[This message has been edited by mickporter (edited 09 February 2006).]

Just my 2? worth.

Furnace = Black center w/brown or reddish barbs.

Silver Badger = Black center w/silver barbs (sometimes almost white)

Gold badger = Black center w/Gold barbs (not Ginger)

True Badger (an almost forgotten color) = Black center w/tan or dark ginger barbs.
We do produce them and the Late Al Campbel loved them.

Coch Y Bondu is Furnace with specks of black on the tips and barbs.

Greenwell is Gold badger with the black specks on the tips and barb ends.

Because of the color genetics of our birds we do get a lot of variations in colors. Even in full brothers from a single hen and rooster.

No one has all the answers to colors. We all have our own idea of what color is what. Ten tiers being asked "what is this color?" (when shown an odd color skin) I find I may get as many as 15 different answers, each one given as if coming from an expert on color. :-)

Because of the differences of opinion, we have photographed different colors in a way I think the tier sees a hackle. On our web site click on the close view and it may be easier to determine what we call a color.

Just because it is on my web site does not make it so, just my opinion.

I am not wanting to start an argument. Just trying to help a bit.

Denny


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Denny
Denny@conranch.com
Co-Owner Conranch Hackles

Hi Jim, I think the feather with black center AND tips with brown in between is called "Cock-y bondhu" where, as in the Badgers and Furnace, the black along the stem is actually all web. per Leiser's book "The complete book of fly tying".

O.K.
I'm well aware of the current terminology that we give these hackles: Furnace , Badger, Coch-Y-Bondu.
I found Leisenrings desription of these colors interesting AND simplified.
Badger: center list color clear to the tips
Furnace: center list color than list again at the tips, as if the hackle had been but into a furnace and the ends were cinged black.
Leisenring does not seem to care about the color silver, golden, brown, ginger,red but only where the list is on the feathers. This ,to him ,is what makes a badger a badger and a furnace a furnace. It sure simplifies color terminology.
I was wondering if anyone knew: if, when, where, or how the current descriptions developed?
As Mick Porter explains the color terminology in England is different than here in the U.S.A. I wonder if the older books (pre-1941) had similar descriptions of hackle colors as Leisenrings.

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[url=http://www.Jimsflyco.com:894ad]www.Jimsflyco.com[/url:894ad] [url=http://www.flymph.com:894ad]www.flymph.com[/url:894ad]

Denny's descriptions do match those used by Whiting's on their range of hackles.

But I still stick to my point which is that patterns which originate in the UK certainly will not require feathers of these colour descriptions. For example Badger in the UK is Black with white barbs. (Denny describes this as silver badger). Uk patterns which require badger hackles will require this feather and not the black with ginger barbs, which I do not have a sample of but appears to fit the bill of an english greenwell.

I also have to be well aware when I tie patterns of American origin that I will need to re-think my colours to suit your terminology.

We have a common language (if not spelling!!), but it appears that colours do not travel as well..... hehehe

I think it may be a blessing that fish do not appear to be quite so discerning!!!

[This message has been edited by mickporter (edited 10 February 2006).]

[This message has been edited by mickporter (edited 10 February 2006).]

"England and America are two countries separated by a common language." -George Bernard Shaw