Has anyone used or made a furled leader made of braided line? If so do they float or at least will they with some kind of treatment (floatant).
Thanks.
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Has anyone used or made a furled leader made of braided line? If so do they float or at least will they with some kind of treatment (floatant).
Thanks.
Tig -Quote:
Originally Posted by Tig
I have never used braided line for anything, don't even know of what material it is made or how it is made. That said, in all the discussions on this BB about furling over the past 14 or so years, using braided line has never come up as a known or potential material. The silence on that subject probably says it all.
That being said, I see no reason why you couldn't use it to make a furled leader, with the caveat that the material used and the way it is made might not take kindly to the furling process. The closest I can come to that possibility out of the various materials I've used to make furled leaders over the past 17 years, is a kevlar tippet material. As strong as kevlar is when furled properly, kevlar ( at least the version I used ) didn't take to being furled under high stress. It is the only material I have actually broken on my jig while furling a leader - it just kind of blew up.
The question I have is why you would want to make a furled leader out of braided line, what's the objective for what kind of fishing ?? Not really asking, but if you want to discuss that aspect of your inquiry you might get some good ideas from some of us who have been into using and making furled leaders for a long time.
John
P.S. The question whether such a leader would float gets to another topic - floating vs. submerged leaders - that has been roundly discussed on this BB in the past. There have been few advocates for submerged leaders of any kind, but a lot of folks do seem to prefer floating leaders just because that is what they learned on and are stuck to.
First of all, the kevlar material referenced above was actually tying thread, not tippet material. Senior moment.
Second, there was a BB thread a while back about Spectra braid, which might be the same or similar to Tig's intended material.
Third, this morning on YouTube there is a video by a fellow named William B. Tedrick using Sufix 10# braid material to build a furled leader.
Tedrick's set up, his jig, and method of furling is similar to that used by a number of folks on the BB. His video is rather long, but should be of real value to those interested in learning about furling and how to go about doing it.
John
Thanks John. I have been furling leaders for a dozen or more years. Mostly mono and nylon thread. I have used mono chord (#3?) for dry fly leaders.
I am trying to find a material that will furl tighter. A friend has furled leaders that he has bought that don't look like any that I have ever seen in real time
or on the internet. Heavy butt section and the points at which it tapers are almost invisible. They are super tight. The ones he uses are 4.5 to 5 ft. in length. Can't remember right now where he gets them but I will find out. He has developed a system of nymphing with them and an indicator that has proven extremely effective. Can't give you the exact setup because I haven't weasled it out of him yet...but I'm still trying. I know that a floating leader for nymphing doesn't sound right but it is. I am heading to Northern Ont. this week but I will try to find the video you mentioned soon.
The braid that I have is made of Japanese UHMPE fibres - ultra high modulus polyethylene fibres extremely strong with very little to no stretch.
Thanks again
... got the better of my ignorance. So I did some reading and watched a few more YouTube videos on braided line. No reason at all that you couldn't use it for furling leaders. And a braided line furled leader would probably float just fine with application of an appropriate floatant.
I am still curious about what you are trying to accomplish. Regarding a tighter furl - how much reduction do you favor when you furl your leaders. Way back when, when there were a bunch of folks posting and participating on this BB, it seems most talked about reducing 10%. How that became some kind of standard or norm is something that I never understood.
Personally, I have always gone for 20% reduction ( noting that I only use thread for my leaders, except a couple of nymphing leader made of fluoro which are much different in length and configuration than the thread leaders ). Greater reduction alone might account for the tighter furl that you are interested in. As to a heavy butt section, just add a few loops more for the butt section than you normally do. The combination of more loops on the butt section and 20% or more reduction might get you exactly where you want to be - or not.
If you want or need more strength and less stretch in a leader, braided line may be the way to go. But there may be alternatives to how you furl leaders ( either thread or mono ) that will produce leaders more suited to your purposes.
John
Tig -Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnScott
No, this is not a sale advertisement.:roll:
Wondering how you are doing with your friend, and approaching the issue of using a floating leader for nymph fishing.
A couple weeks ago I happened across a very old thread, while looking for some other information, which included some thoughts from one of the really good furlers on this BB at the time. He suggested furling to 30% reduction to improve the stiffness of even a thread furled leader. I haven't tried it because I much prefer the most supple leader I can make, but it might be something that will work for you.
On the subject of thread furled leaders being used for nymph fishing, yesterday I was fishing one of my "standard" thread furled leaders with about 4' of 4X tippet to a large salmonfly dry fly with a couple small nymphs ( t.c.t.k. and later a flashback PT ) dropped with another 4' or so of 4X. That rig worked just fine with my fast action 9' for 4 wt rod. My thread leaders don't float, by intention and design - they submerge, but will not sink even a small dry fly. For example, after I was done nymphing yesterday, I tied on a size 16 mahogany dun emerger pattern fished on the surface dry and caught several fish with that set up.
Anyway, just thought I would pass along the information for you or anyone else happening across this thread interested in the subject.
John
Thanks John. I am finding that the braided line having no stretch tends to become somewhat loose after furling. I believe it is the stretch factor in a material that keeps the leader tightly furled. As for size of leader and butt section I know pretty much how to alter them. It's the shape and tightness of the butt section that is different than anything I have seen. I probably need to get another look at the actual leader. I am pretty sure that he will order one for me when he orders some new ones. Thanks again for the time and info. I'll try to keep this thread updated if any changes.
Tig (and John)
I have been furling leaders for 15 years since I met Kathy Scott a a fly fishing convention. Since then, I have been looking for the perfect material for furling. I tried braid line but it is bulky and tends to loosen. I now use Berkley's Nanofil (2-8 lb)for my leaders. Its not a braid but made of "Dyneema" fibers. It has a very thin diameter but has no stretch. The line has very little mass to aid in turnover. I have found that building a 5 ft leader using Kathy Scott's method works great with the NanofiI but modifications are needed from the Kathy Scott method. First I use 15% - 20% reduction. I let furled legs wrapped around each other but l not let the wrapped 2 legs unwind. I keep the leader tight by spraying the wrapped legs with a polyurathane clear coat while still under tension. I am not an materials engineer, but I think the polyurathane dissolves or rearranges some of the fibers and allows the leader to retain the tension after it dries. The tension is very important because it provides the resistance for turning over the fly. Adding 2-5ft of your favorite tippet material provides enough suppleness for dry flies. The good qualities of a Nanofil leader is 1) it floats 2) it last forever 3) it has great turn-over 4) super strong 5) not weakened by wind knots. The down side is that Nanofil runs $20 for 150 yards. I .use the leader for nymphing, dies, and streamers. I make leaders from 1wt to 10 wt. by modifying the # of wraps and the diameter of the line (2lb-8lb). I doubt this is how Tig's friend's leader is made since I have never seen a commercial leader made this way but it sounds like something similar. Good luck in your leader journey. I ended my leader journey 5 years ago.
... for joining and advancing the discussion. I went back and looked at some old posts on furling, and ran across a thread you started about ten years ago on using different materials. That was in the heyday of participation on the Furling forum with all kinds of interesting input from a good variety of BB members.
Anyway, I learned furling from a fellow in Idaho Falls who used an old rope making machine to teach a class on furling. His method was / is quite different from Kathy's. I ended up designing my own furling jig based on his approach, which was rather a vexing process but was also quite rewarding in the end.
I did review Kathy's video a good number of years ago and found her method rather cumbersome, especially compared to the method I learned. Several other BB members use a method very similar to the one that I adopted, some of whom furl commercially. Kudus to Kathy for what she contributed to the general awareness of furled leaders and getting a lot of folks started, but also to others who brought alternatives to the discussion.
All that as background to saying it is difficult for me to understand some of the technique you describe in your post. Folks who do use Kathy's method will likely understand them quite readily.
What is apparent from your post here and in earlier discussions is that you have experience with a significant variety of materials, pursue many different species and fishing situations with a large arsenal of fly rods. Conversely, I only pursue trouts in freestone rivers in Montana and Idaho. Whereas you favor complexity, I favor simplicity. So I use the same basic thread furled leader that I first learned something like seventeen years ago. You favor floating leaders, for good reason, and I favor leaders that submerge for similar reasons. You have a lot more to contribute to a discussion of Tig's initial question about braided line for furled leaders that float, both helping Tig and others interested in different possibilities.
The question of floating leaders and tippets vs submerged leaders and tippets had quite an airing years ago on the BB. I won't get into that again here, but I did have a recent chuckle watching a YouTube video by a fellow who claimed to have just discovered the secret to catch more fishies fly angling with dry flies, in particular. He demonstrated the newly discovered secret with a couple underwater views showing a floating tippet and one showing a tippet submerged by adding something to help it break the surface tension and sink, both attached to a dry fly. The floating tippet caused some disruption to the surface of the water while the submerged tippet did not. He posited that the floating tippet disruption to the surface put fish off in a way that the submerged tippet did not.
Now, I don't buy the YouTuber's experiment because the conditions he presented don't come close to any real world angling situations other than on perfectly still stillwater. But based on my experience over the years, using very supple thread furled leaders with very supple tippet that submerge for dry flies, I do believe that a better presentation is possible with that set up than with a stiffer leader material and floating tippet.
Thanks again for jumping in here. And the trip down memory lane on the ten year old thread you started.
John
John,
I agree with you about better presentation of a supple furled leader. My leader journey led me to an assumption that the main purpose of the first, and in my case, the only 5 ft section of the furled leader, is tapered to turn over the fly. In my view, my furled leader is only an extension of the tapered fly line. This is probably due to the fact that I am not a great caster and anything that helps me get a good loop is paramount. The suppleness I look for is in the tippet. I fish trout fish the Driftless in Wisconsin and my one leader will suit me in all my presentations. When I cast, I assume that the fish will see my 5 ft furled leader so when I cast I try to only make my tippet land close upstream. I vary my tippet for the different presentations. For small dries, I will tie on about 3 ft of 4X and tapper to 3 ft of 6X so technically I am fishing a 12 ft leader. When I nymph for trout in riffles I tie on about 3 ft of 4X and place the indicator on the leader in front of the tippet ring. The floating leader lets me know along with the indicator possible drag issues. The leader becomes a sighter when high sticking. When I throw streamers, I tie on 3X to the depth I want to fish. It is very possible that I fish all 4 ways with flies varying from size 20 to size 8 on a driftless spring creek and by varying my tippet can can accommodate how I have to fish by using only one type of leader. The convenience of not having to change my leader has a big influence on my choice of leaders. I hope this makes sense to you. My last guided trip was a drift trip on the Madison. The guide had no knowledge of "furled" leaders so he set up my rod with his preferred double indicator nymph rig. I did learn a new nymphing technique with the double indicator but it was vary similar how I nymph with my furled leader.
Thanks for your input.
caribe